D&D 5E Monks Suck

[MwaO]

I'll concede that the TWF rogue does more damage than the monk, as long as you concede that the monks damage is close to that rogues. That the damage is close is important for my next point - stunning strike and open hands prone will be enough to close the gap and then some, ultimately putting the monk ahead in damage. Which I think brings us to your next point...

I mean the basic problem here is we don't know what the party composition is. Have another primary melee person in the group? Have widely spread out combats? Have casters who force lots of Dex saves? Have casters who target other things?

As examples:
Have a great weapon fighter or hand crossbow shooter in the party with a Monk? They're going to do a lot more damage.
Have a blasty Wizard who does a lot of mass reflex save spells? They're going to do more damage.
Have a non-blasty Wizard who tries to incapacitate targets? A monk+that wizard isn't a great combo.

Finally, Rogue 1/Monk X is a great multiclass, simply because it solves the 'So,who is the party Rogue' problem without really disabling Monk capabilities.

 

[Dausuul]

Then party attack damage with flurry of blows = 67.67 = 40.6 DPR
Party attack damage when stunning strike lands (assumes on average 1 of the remaining attacks has stunning strike apply) = 46.5 DPR
Party damage when stunning strike doesn't land = 36.102

This is a decent estimate of the direct impact on party DPR, but don't forget the other half of stun. Much of the benefit of stun comes, not from the modest increase in party DPR, but from the fact that the monster's DPR goes to zero.

Incorporating this is a bit trickier, since you have to come up with a way to measure "monster damage prevented" against "PC damage dealt," but you're missing a big chunk of the value of Stunning Strike otherwise.

 

[Dausuul]

Yes, we can muddy the waters if we add in class abilities, but let's not pretend the Monk is the only class with these. Calculating DPR is not perfect, for more reasons than you mention. However, it beats, "my gut tells me..." or "in my experience..." as these are rife with emotional bias.

This is kind of mind-blowing coming from the guy who popularized the non-damaging "god wizard" back in 3E days.

Just because something is hard to measure, doesn't mean you can ignore it and only consider the easy-to-measure part. That is exactly the same as going with a gut estimate; the fact that your gut is estimating zero doesn't make it any more valid.

 

[Undrave]

How is the Rogue getting Sneak Attack?

By targeting someone within 5 feet of their allies? It's pretty easy.

No one on DDB, at least...should I therefore discount the opinion of everyone that plays in the shallow end of the pool. According to DDB everyone starts at 3rd level as well. Bloody Tourists!

I said I was exaggerating. Anyway, all that means is that, IMO, a class where it's signature schtick comes online earlier is BETTER than one who comes online later, regardless of how well they perform at level 15 or 20. The Monk's most famous abilities are Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, and both are limited by Ki (So you don't get to do your thing often) and you only get Stunning Strike at 6th.

A Rogue gets Sneak Attack and Expertise at 1st level, then, they get Cunning Action at 2nd level. By the time they pick a subclass, the Rogue has basically its play style online: Find ways to do sneak attack, get out of danger, and be the skill monkey when not in combat. Everything else they get afterwards, in their core class, is in service of those three core concepts. They get better at avoiding damage, they get better at hiding, they get better at skills stuff.

The Monk's 'lock down skirmisher' styling only comes online at level 6 with Stunning Strike, and they keep getting stuff that doesn't really relate to anything else, like the language thing or astral projection. Design wise, they're an unfocused mess that makes low level play disappointing.

I do as well. Comp Lang is a literal translation, though. The french term for "Orgasm" translates into English as "the little death". Phrases in Russian translated literally into english, sound crazy, as do Spanish Idioms.
Comp Lang is not the Tongues spell

Orgasm in French is 'orgasme'. La petite mort is a metaphor, a figure of speech, not an actual term.

And yes, Comprehend Language only lets you, as the name implies, comprehend. It doesn't let you speak the language, but it does allow you to READ it, which is very useful. It's also a level 1 Ritual so you don't need to spend spell slots on it. Tongues has the downside of not being a ritual (which is dumb).

It's not that speaking all languages at 13th level is a bad ability, it's just not a good enough excuse to play a Monk over anything else. Especially since it comes online at 13th level.

 

[Flamestrike]

It's not that speaking all languages at 13th level is a bad ability, it's just not a good enough excuse to play a Monk over anything else. Especially since it comes online at 13th level.

Immediately followed at 14th level by Proficiency in all saves (worth 2 Feats alone right there) plus an at will failed save re-roll for 1 measly Ki point.

Laugh at the Fighters 2/day Indomitable re-roll.

Seeing as after 11th level onwards advancement speeds up dramatically (you level every second session IME), I can handle what is effectively a Social pillar ability for 2 sessions for the next ability on the conveyor belt.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Design wise, they're an unfocused mess that makes low level play disappointing.

Again, that's true ... for you.

For many other people, the monk has an insanely cool collection of miscellaneous abilities built into the base chassis. This collection allows the monk to be:

1. A decent fighter; and
2. A great, mobile scout.

But more importantly, the monk is exceedingly interesting, if you're into that style of play. Because it can do some things that almost no other class can.

If you are playing, for example, a campaign that requires lot of social settings (where armor and weapons are frowned upon!), then Monks suddenly become incredibly useful, not to mention a great surprise tactic.

That's a very specific example, but Monks are amazingly useful in all sorts of parties and all sorts of campaigns; you just have to find their use.

On the other hand, Monks are also one of the most self-sufficient classes that there are. In addition to the insane movement and ability to fight without weapons or armor and to have their attacks count as magical, they gradually get (as base, not as subclass):
-Ability to disengage or dodge (and if you disengage, you can also 2x jump, which really adds to the monk's movement)
-Deflect missiles (so you don't worry so much about missile weapon attacks)
-Near immunity to falling damage as level increases
-Recovery from being charmed or frightened
-Speak and understand any language
-Proficiency in all saving throws.

You're right; it's not "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" or "SMITE SMITE SMITE" or "BLAST BLAST BLAST."

It's a funky, monk-y, class. Which is why the people that like it, tend to really like it. And it's okay if you don't! You can always play an artificer.

 

[Mort]

By targeting someone within 5 feet of their allies? It's pretty easy.



I said I was exaggerating. Anyway, all that means is that, IMO, a class where it's signature schtick comes online earlier is BETTER than one who comes online later, regardless of how well they perform at level 15 or 20. The Monk's most famous abilities are Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, and both are limited by Ki (So you don't get to do your thing often) and you only get Stunning Strike at 6th.

A Rogue gets Sneak Attack and Expertise at 1st level, then, they get Cunning Action at 2nd level. By the time they pick a subclass, the Rogue has basically its play style online: Find ways to do sneak attack, get out of danger, and be the skill monkey when not in combat. Everything else they get afterwards, in their core class, is in service of those three core concepts. They get better at avoiding damage, they get better at hiding, they get better at skills stuff.

The Monk's 'lock down skirmisher' styling only comes online at level 6 with Stunning Strike, and they keep getting stuff that doesn't really relate to anything else, like the language thing or astral projection. Design wise, they're an unfocused mess that makes low level play disappointing.



Orgasm in French is 'orgasme'. La petite mort is a metaphor, a figure of speech, not an actual term.

And yes, Comprehend Language only lets you, as the name implies, comprehend. It doesn't let you speak the language, but it does allow you to READ it, which is very useful. It's also a level 1 Ritual so you don't need to spend spell slots on it. Tongues has the downside of not being a ritual (which is dumb).

It's not that speaking all languages at 13th level is a bad ability, it's just not a good enough excuse to play a Monk over anything else. Especially since it comes online at 13th level.

Stunning strike is 5th level, not 6th. But otherwise pretty much agree.

 

[Flamestrike]

The Monk's 'lock down skirmisher' styling only comes online at level 6 with Stunning Strike,

Level 5.

and they keep getting stuff that doesn't really relate to anything else, like the language thing or astral projection.

And increased damage dice, and more Ki points, and better defences.

Design wise, they're an unfocused mess that makes low level play disappointing.

Wut? They're one of the stronger low level classes!

AC 16, +5 to hit (2 attacks) dealing 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 from 3rd level onwards, with a 40' speed from 2nd

That damage puts them on par with a Greatweapon or TWF Fighter.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hunter's Mark is another bonus action! I'm sure it will help a bit, though

Once every few rounds. Big deal.
Actual baseline damage is about 2d8+8 per round, corrected for d20 swing, which the monk does at-will just like anyone else. The rogue does more on a hit because a miss hurts their output more, and everyone else (Including the monk) spends something to go past that. Maybe not the fighter, but they don’t get the third attack action attack until 11.

So, spending whatever resource they’re spending to put a d6 on each of those d6s or d8s, on top of whatever their subclass does, is a perfectly good use of a bonus action.
Unless it’s a battle where there are only creatures that will go down in 1 round (a boring, unchallenging, fight) then there are good uses of it.

Readying an action is fairly efficient for a single-classed rogue in this instance. They weren't going to use their reaction this round anyway, because they are waiting for the enemy to close in, and they do their full turn's worth of damage on a readied attack.

That rogue is in serious trouble at my table, if that’s their strategy. They’re absolutely gonna need Uncanny Dodge.



Both of you, and some other folks, seem to value ranged combat much too highly, as well. Do your DMs not include spellcasters, archers, flyers, and slippery skirmishers, in your battles? I’d consider any fight where the ranged characters are safe to be either an intentionally easy fight, or a fight that I failed to design well.

 

[Esker]

Vuman (Dex/ Wis) Kensai Monk (longbow, Jian), +2 Dex, Alert feat.

S: 10, D: 18, C: 14, I: 8, W 16, Ch: 8; Acrobatics +7, Perception +6, Athletics +3, Insight +6, Stealth +7, AC: 17, Initiative +9, HP 38, Move 40', Saves - Str +3, Dex +7, Con +2, I -1, W +3, Ch -1 - Jian (Longsword) +7 (1d10+4), shuriken x 20 (daggers) +7 (1d6+4), Longbow +7 (1d8+4) and 30 arrows.

I guess you posted this one while I was writing up the other match, but sure, let's try this too. I'll go

Vuman (Dex/Con) Battlemaster, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter.

Fighting Style: Archery
Maneuvers: Precision Attack, Menacing Attack, Trip Attack
Equipment: Half Plate, Hand Crossbow (+8 to hit), Longbow (+8 to hit), Shortsword (+6 to hit)

S: 12, D: 16, C: 16, I: 8, W: 13, Ch: 8
Acrobatics +6, Athletics +4
AC: 17
Initiative: +3
HP: 49

How should we go about this? Want to actually play out a best of 3? I don't want to clog up this thread, but we could do a play-by-post thing in Discord, or in a DDB PM, or an asynchronous Roll20 thing, or...