D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Asisreo]

A commoner is faster than a redcap, stronger than an intellect devourer, and has a higher AC than a gelatinous cube. Does that mean they're a comparable threat to any of them?

Uh, you're not trying to be a threat to your teammates, you're working together. Making it a competition is a bad estimation.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's not at all a balanced adventuring day. A balanced adventuring day exp for a typical 8th-level party is 24,000 exp but that adventure has an adjusted exp value of over 40,000 exp. A party's expected to collapse halfway there.

Firstly, it was an eyeball.

Secondly 5 x 8th level PCs is 30,000xp, which was my assumption.

Thirdly, it depends how you calculate multiple monster encounters. My view is that the low (1/2) CR creatures (Hobgoblins) do not 'meaningfully contribute to the difficulty of the encounter' as per the DMG (i.e. they're mooks) so I didn't multiply encounter XP for their presence (I simply added them in).

A single AoE effect (Fireball, Spirit Guardians etc) almost certainly cleans them up in one turn, and those AoE effects are common at 8th level.

Encounters 2, 4 and 5 thus have a lower adjusted difficulty with a multiplier of x 1.5, x 2 and x 1.5 respectively (instead of 2.5 for each).

That adjusts the Adventuring day XP budget down closer to 30,000 (maybe still a touch over; but that's OK as I tend to give out magic items which means the PCs can handle more, and the Adventuring day limit is a rough guide in any event - a little over or a little under is fine).

 

[Asisreo]

What abilities are those? Running on walls?

That and:
Communication(free)
Water walking(free)
Double jump(1Ki)
Reduce/nullify falling(free)
Doesn't get frail(free)
Invisibility(4 Ki)
Ability to go into different planes of existence (8 Ki)
Subclasses:
Darkness (2ki)
Silence (2ki)
Pass without Trace (2 ki)
Darkvision (2 Ki)
Teleportation (free)
Invisibility (free)
Elemental Attunement (free)
Gaseous form (4 Ki)
Fly (4 ki)
Shape flowing River (1 Ki)
Wall of Stone (6 Ki)

Yes. But classes without expertise do more than rogues in combat. Except monks.

A monk is a much better tank than a rogue since they can turn invisible and gain resistance to all damage. They also get proficiency on all saves and rerolls for 1/monk level resources with a maximum of 1/14th of their resources. They have better damage than a rogue for the majority of their time before gaining much better tanking qualities.

Poison and Disease immunity don't really contribute to the party, they mostly just help the monk stay alive. But also there are a number of races that get things like that.

Having a high AC doesn't really contribute to the party. They mostly just help the fighter stay alive. But also their are a number of classes that get things like that.

Communicate with anything that knows a language?? At 13th level?? You mean the ability that most spellcasters can have when needed at level 5? That Great Old One warlocks have always-on starting at level 1?

Why would a wizard ever pick up Comprehend Language? Practically a waste since the bard most assuredly already has it. But why would the bard waste their spells known on comprehend language when they could just leave that to the sorcerer? But the sorcerer has limited spells known so they'll just leave it for the warlock. But the hexblade doesn't see a use in it. He decided he didn't need that spell.

 

[Esker]

Uh, you're not trying to be a threat to your teammates, you're working together. Making it a competition is a bad estimation.

I think you know what I meant. But in case you didn't, I wasn't saying that any character should be a threat to their teammates; I was saying that just because you might be a bit better on any given dimension than one of your teammates doesn't mean you're actually carrying your weight in a party. A commoner is not a formidable combatant in comparison to any of the creatures mentioned.

 

[Esker]

Hey, sorry, I owe you a response. (I've been on the road all day.)

Here's the one paragraph in particular that I was thinking of:
...

The God Wizard guide was written "in character", in the voice of a God Wizard themselves. It's not Treantmonk talking to his readers. Have you played or played with a wizard with a superiority complex who condescends to everyone they meet? That's the narrative conceit in that guide.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The God Wizard guide was written "in character", in the voice of a God Wizard themselves. It's not Treantmonk talking to his readers. Have you played or played with a wizard with a superiority complex who condescends to everyone they meet? That's the narrative conceit in that guide.

That strikes me as ex post facto B.S.

 

[Ancalagon]

There is white board analysis, and there is playing the game

I ran a campaign from level 2 to 9 with one, then two monks. Dungeons, forest adventures, cities... they are plenty good. Their high mobility and slipperiness makes up for their fragility. Their capacity to lock down a foe is excellent.

Are they OP(ish) like the paladin? No. Is the flavor a little too specific? Yes. Are they for everyone? No. Are they a bit challenging to play? Yes. But it is not a bad class, by a mile.

 

[Esker]

That and:
Communication(free)
Water walking(free)
Double jump(1Ki)
Reduce/nullify falling(free)

All of these things are (a) highly circumstantial, and (b) available as rituals / low level spells to spellcasters.

Doesn't get frail(free)

I have never seen or played in a campaign where this was relevant.

Invisibility(4 Ki)
Ability to go into different planes of existence (8 Ki)

The 18th level ability you mean? A level when spellcasters are bending the fabric of reality itself?

Darkness (2ki)
Silence (2ki)
Pass without Trace (2 ki)
Darkvision (2 Ki)

These are decent abilities, available to one subclass of monk... but by the time the monk can use them without severely hampering their combat capability, actual spellcasters have enough spell slots that if they need one of these, a 2nd level slot is not such a precious resource.

Teleportation (free)
Invisibility (free)

Also neat abilities, but the invisibility one comes on quite late, and the teleportation one would be good if the rest of the class actually had features that actually let them leverage the extra mobility.

Elemental Attunement (free)
Gaseous form (4 Ki)
Fly (4 ki)
Shape flowing River (1 Ki)
Wall of Stone (6 Ki)

Yeah, not gonna get into four-elements monk. Everything they can do is way overpriced in terms of ki, and way cuts into their ability to be functional the rest of the time.

A monk is a much better tank than a rogue since they can turn invisible and gain resistance to all damage. They also get proficiency on all saves and rerolls for 1/monk level resources with a maximum of 1/14th of their resources.

Again, 18th level is not a super-relevant point of comparison. Their saves are better than rogues' after 14th level, yes. But not by a huge margin; a rogue gets an extra feat, so can pick up CON saves, for example, and gets Wisdom saves around the same time that the monk gets diamond soul. When it comes to avoiding attack damage, the rogue is better unless the monk hampers their offense severely by dodging all the time. As for actually "tanking", as in taking heat off your allies, why would an enemy go after a creature that isn't a significant threat to them?

They have better damage than a rogue for the majority of their time before gaining much better tanking qualities.

No?

Having a high AC doesn't really contribute to the party. They mostly just help the fighter stay alive. But also their are a number of classes that get things like that.

You brought up poison and disease immunity in the context of 'utility'.

Why would a wizard ever pick up Comprehend Language? Practically a waste since the bard most assuredly already has it.

Wizards get to use rituals without preparing them. I take Comprehend Languages all the time on my wizards. It doesn't come up that often, but I take it anyway. That's at 1st level. Tongues is at 5th. The monk gets their tongue feature at 13th.

 

[Esker]

That strikes me as ex post facto B.S.

It's literally the first text in the guide.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It's literally the first text in the guide.

Mea culpa: you are right.

In my mind it still doesn't make it ok. It would be one thing if there were a bunch of in-character asides that sounded like in-game roleplaying. But when it's written 1st person, from an out-of-game perspective, discussing rules and mechanics, then saying "I'm just roleplaying" does not get you off the hook for dismissing other players as being a "waste of space". In fact, I would put that excuse squarely in the same category as the classic schoolyard bully telling the teaching, "Jeesh...I was just kidding. Can't he take a joke?"