Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

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@Hussar - We're going to disagree about Lovecraft. I don't see any value in not facing and being honest about the seminal works that inform the genre. You cant take Lovecraft out of the horror and fantasy genres even if you wanted to. I'd prefer to identify the racism for what it is so that identifying when it rears its head, either through a lack of examination, or worse through agreement is possible.
Exactly...I mean, might as well stop reading Orson Scott Card or teaching T.S. Elliot. And while you're at it, stop reading Dr. Seuss and Roald Dahl to your kids, too.

Also, if we are going to go that far, might as well stop reading Clive Barker, Dean Koontz and Stephen King; much of their work was inspired by Lovecraft.
 

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I dunno. I don't exactly go out of my way to buy Mein Kampf or incorporate it into my games. And he's been dead about the same amount of time.
That is a political manifest, not a work of fiction.

It's not about boycotting though. It's about recognizing that

A) the Mythos and many of the mythos stories are grounded in some extreme racism.
That is an exaggeration. In some of the stories racist assumptions are part of the premise in some they appear tangentially and in some they do not feature at all.
B) using Mythos stories and elements from Mythos stories without examination is tantamount to approval of the message. Or, at the very least, gives the appearance of approval.
Why you assume that this examination has not happened or is not happening? Lovecraft being a horrible racist and this being reflected his stories is not exactly news. It was so apparent that people commented on when he was still alive.

There is literally a new TV series 'Lovecraft Country' which explores the conjunction of racism and lovecraftian horror. (I haven't seen it yet, so I cannot comment more on it.)

Given the mountain of fantasy fiction out there, I'm not sure we need to enshrine one of our most horrid examples of humanity as a source of material for the game. It's kind of like how they don't use Lovecraft's bust as a writing award anymore after handing one to a black author. Does make things kinda uncomfortable. "Yeah, Dave, I know the writer of this stuff I'm using in the game called you a sub-human stain on existence who should be murdered in your sleep, but, his ideas are just SOOOO cool." is a conversation I'd rather not have with my players. Or my children for that matter.
Yes, his bust as an award is another matter. But his work has merit despite him being personally horrible. A lot of great artists throughout the human history have been pretty horrible people and doubly so if we start to apply modern standards to them (granted, Lovecraft was racist even by standards of his time.) Purging our media from products of people with questionable morals would leave very little. It simply is not a sensible or a feasible standard. Sure, applying pressure to hateful people who are still alive, but the dead are beyond our reach. We can (and should) remember that they were terrible people and still find merit in their art.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The Tungusic peoples and their culture. You admit as much when you fished for this question.
It comes from a Tungus verb, not a cultural title. Big difference. Nor is the word shaman, by anyone's definition, limited to the Tungis culture. Nor has it ever been. The project has always been one of comparison.
 

Aldarc

Legend
It comes from a Tungus verb, not a cultural title.
FYI, it’s fairly common for verbs to become nouns. Saying that the word comes from a verb is kinda meaningless. If we take ‘shaman’ to mean “one who knows” then we are likely dealing with a verbal noun or an etymological root. The word that is the focus of my dissertation (Hebrew rûāh.): wind, breath, spirit, temperament) is believed to trace its origin to the verb RWH. (to be spacious, wide) and yet we would still recognize rûāh. as a noun. From what I can tell in my searches so far, the spiritual leaders of the Evenks are referred to as “shamans”. Do you have a source for their actual cultural title?

Nor is the word shaman, by anyone's definition, limited to the Tungis culture. Nor has it ever been. The project has always been one of comparison.
You mean since Euro-American scholars took the term and applied it to other cultures? Okay. So how is appropriating another cultural term divorced from its original context not cultural appropriation again?
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
FYI, it’s fairly common for verbs to become nouns. Saying that the word comes from a verb is kinda meaningless. If we take ‘shaman’ to mean “one who knows” then we are likely dealing with a verbal noun or an etymological root. The word that is the focus of my dissertation (Hebrew rûāh.): wind, breath, spirit, temperament) is believed to trace its origin to the verb RWH. (to be spacious, wide) and yet we would still recognize rûāh. as a noun. From what I can tell in my searches so far, the spiritual leaders of the Evenks are referred to as “shamans”. Do you have a source for their actual cultural title?

You mean since Euro-American scholars took the term and applied it to other cultures? Okay. So how is appropriating another cultural term divorced from its original context not cultural appropriation again?
You keep saying a term was appropriated. It wasnt. Obviously the Tungus peoples had a title for their religious intermediaries. Using that word would be appropriation. I dont see any serious argument where using a verb that means one who knows is somehow culturally specific though.

I also think your argument about using that word to describe other cultures is a complete canard. Unless you're suggesting that studying cultures shouldn't be undertaken, which is arrant nonsense, the only way you can do that is through a process of comparison and contrast. Keep in mind that many of the scholars you so quickly accuse were also using that same word to describe elements of their own cultures. The study of extant preliterate cultures in order to expand our knowledge of non extant ones is a perfectly cromulent academic pursuit. This isnt controversial. Nor is it a process that requires or assumes cultural appropriation. It might, academics are individuals, and pretty obviously not without their own biases, but that doesnt mean you get to toss the baby out with the bathwater.
 

Aldarc

Legend
You keep saying a term was appropriated. It wasnt. Obviously the Tungus peoples had a title for their religious intermediaries. Using that word would be appropriation.
What is or was that word then?

I dont see any serious argument where using a verb that means one who knows is somehow culturally specific though.
Why do you keep dismissing its nominal status by acting like a verbal noun or a participle (noun) can't act as a noun? Your approach is linguistically unsound.

I also think your argument about using that word to describe other cultures is a complete canard. Unless you're suggesting that studying cultures shouldn't be undertaken, which is arrant nonsense, the only way you can do that is through a process of comparison and contrast. Keep in mind that many of the scholars you so quickly accuse were also using that same word to describe elements of their own cultures. The study of extant preliterate cultures in order to expand our knowledge of non extant ones is a perfectly cromulent academic pursuit. This isnt controversial. Nor is it a process that requires or assumes cultural appropriation. It might, academics are individuals, and pretty obviously not without their own biases, but that doesnt mean you get to toss the baby out with the bathwater.
Seems like you are clearly constructing a false dilemma here between using this word to describe other cultures or not being able to study other cultures at all.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
FYI, it’s fairly common for verbs to become nouns. Saying that the word comes from a verb is kinda meaningless. If we take ‘shaman’ to mean “one who knows” then we are likely dealing with a verbal noun or an etymological root. The word that is the focus of my dissertation (Hebrew rûāh.): wind, breath, spirit, temperament) is believed to trace its origin to the verb RWH. (to be spacious, wide) and yet we would still recognize rûāh. as a noun. From what I can tell in my searches so far, the spiritual leaders of the Evenks are referred to as “shamans”. Do you have a source for their actual cultural title?

It doesn't matter. Shaman is just the generic word for a variety of religious practices that have some similarities. It's no different than using Polytheistic to describe various cultures that worshiped multiple/pantheons of gods. Using Polytheistic doesn't appropriate the specifics of a culture. If I create a fictional D&D country and develop some gods for it, then describe it as polytheistic, I haven't appropriated anything from Greek culture, Roman culture, Japanese culture or any other culture that had multiple gods. Shaman is the same way. Using Shaman doesn't take from any culture since it's just a generic religious term for someone who deals with spirits.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:

So, I just read back several pages of the thread, and what we see is the same argument, about one word, going on, and on, and on, and on, with no resolution.

If there is no sign of resolution, or forward motion into something constructive, this thread will close shortly.
 

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