D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

[Zardnaar]

There are lot's of options here, and as others pointed out much depends on the assumtions of the person.

Me, personally, see the Warlock as the perfect envisioning of the Templar class, to the point that I wished it existed back in 2E. I'd just reskin it's "source" as divine* and go for it.

* In 5E power sources are just labels after all, not much of a game effect. Here i just want to mean that it's use will not cause defiling, like all divine or primal magic, while all kinds of arcane magic will. And now that i think about, why is this? Why should magic flowing through the ultimate defilers? Maybe it's part of their condition. Their "curse", so to speak. They are capable of granting powers to others that are in a way better than theirs and they're unable to wield. and that's maybe why they search and select people that can work magic for them without destroying their cities and possessions. Maybe SKs need Templars as much as Templars need SKs...

Thoughts to be explored.

The Sorcerer Kings while not gods are roughly comparable to archfiends in power and exist on the prime material.

So yeah they channel stolen power to their Templars.

Warlocks don't really fit assuming they can defile. The city states ecology can't support mass defilers. It's why they established Templars to begin with.

 

[Haldrik]

However, when I mean a "divine source" I am referring largely to the "power of faith" either coming directly from a god like in FR, or possibly from themselves as Eberron hints at (the existence of gods is not explicitly confirmed one way or another).

In Dark Sun, magic from a divine source just doesn't happen. That doesn't invalidate the cleric class, or even religion, but it does make a very specific form of magic unusable.

The Divine is important, and difficult to define.



D&D 5e still needs descriptions of a Divine power source that are egalitarian, tolerant, and inclusive.

Many (probably most?) human experiences of the sacred are of harmony, mutuality, sharing, neighborliness, cooperation, community, egalitarianism, freedom, partnership, and love. Free will and free choice. And respect for each human.

By extension, each humanoid.

Part of the solution is to focus on a community. A sacred community can be small and local or vast and international. It functions well when each member has equal value and equal say.



D&D 3e moreorless defined the Divine power source as the "power of faith". Faith in the sense of the "power of positive thinking" is effective. Likewise, faith is personal and empowers the freewill of each individual. At the same time, an uncritical "faith in faith" shades into existentialism, and can even end up meaningless, solipsistic, dehumanizing, and nihilistic.



In 5e, the sidebar in Xanathars focuses on something pragmatic: a "cosmic force" or a "philosophy". In other words, the experience of the Divine comes thru something that is plausibly fundamental to reality. So "life" as a force is necessary for human lives and experiences to exist. Similarly, "love" as an ethical philosophy can include the symbiosis between plants and animals, that makes existence possible. This emphasis on something pragmatic feels more realistic and reliable. It makes more sense in a setting.

But even the sidebar of Xanathars has problems: such as the unconscious use of the word "serve".

Servitude, slavery, hierarchy, obedience, punishment, coercion, subjugation, intolerance, dictatorship, imperialism, and "worship". This nonegalitarian conceptualization of the sacred, is ultimately Hellenistic polytheism (blending Greek, Persian, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian), via later Hellenized empires, including the brutal Roman Empires. Forms of monotheism also emerged from within this matrix of Hellenism. The word "worship" is literally a form of violent supremacism, imposing a religious worldview that is alien to many cultures.

Yes, there are experiences of the sacred that a person perceived as Master commanding Slave. Especially within a culture that practiced slavery! But the Divine is also so much more.

It is a high priority for D&D 5e to avoid an unconscious ethnocentric assumption of servitude, when describing the Divine power source.



Each community experiences the sacred in its own unique ways.

D&D does well to be more inclusive.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

The Divine is important, and difficult to define.



D&D 5e still needs descriptions of a Divine power source that are egalitarian, tolerant, and inclusive.

Many (probably most?) human experiences of the sacred are of harmony, mutuality, sharing, neighborliness, cooperation, community, egalitarianism, freedom, partnership, and love. Free will and free choice. And respect for each human.

By extension, each humanoid.

Part of the solution is to focus on a community. A sacred community can be small and local or vast and international. It functions well when each member has equal value and equal say.



D&D 3e moreorless defined the Divine power source as the "power of faith". Faith in the sense of the "power of positive thinking" is effective. Likewise, faith is personal and empowers the freewill of each individual. At the same time, an uncritical "faith in faith" shades into existentialism, and can even end up meaningless, solipsistic, dehumanizing, and nihilistic.



In 5e, the sidebar in Xanathars focuses on something pragmatic: a "cosmic force" or a "philosophy". In other words, the experience of the Divine comes thru something that is plausibly fundamental to reality. So "life" as a force is necessary for human lives and experiences to exist. Similarly, "love" as an ethical philosophy can include the symbiosis between plants and animals, that makes existence possible. This emphasis on something pragmatic feels more realistic and reliable. It makes more sense in a setting.

But even the sidebar of Xanathars has problems: such as the unconscious use of the word "serve".

Servitude, slavery, hierarchy, obedience, punishment, coercion, subjugation, intolerance, dictatorship, imperialism, and "worship". This nonegalitarian conceptualization of the sacred, is ultimately Hellenistic polytheism (blending Greek, Persian, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian), via later Hellenized empires, including the brutal Roman Empires. Forms of monotheism also emerged from within this matrix of Hellenism. The word "worship" is literally a form of violent supremacism, imposing a religious worldview that is alien to many cultures.

Yes, there are experiences of the sacred that a person perceived as Master commanding Slave. Especially in a culture that practices slavery! But the Divine is also so much more.

It is a high priority for D&D 5e to avoid an unconscious ethnocentric assumption of servitude, when describing the Divine power source.



Each community experiences the sacred in its own unique ways.

D&D does well to be more inclusive.

I'll be frank with you; you're extrapolating way too much out of simple descriptions. I won't disagree that D&D should be more inclusive as it should be, because it does, but you're taking a very simple word (serve) and saying it means a whole bunch of other things. If I asked a priest if they considers themself a servant of god, they would likely agree. That in no way endorses the other historical baggage you tie it to.

If you want to consider this discussion you can PM me, as it seems completely ill-suited for a discussion in Dark Sun, a setting without gods.

 

[humble minion]

Hammanu didn't have Druids serving him. An ex Templar fled and became a druid.

And even after that, was sent on important missions by Hamanu, was promoted up the ranks of the templarate, obeyed hamanu’s summons whenever they came, wore a Templar medallion, even cast a Templar spell at least once after becoming a druid, etc etc.

 

[Haldrik]

I'll be frank with you; you're extrapolating way too much out of simple descriptions. I won't disagree that D&D should be more inclusive as it should be, because it does, but you're taking a very simple word (serve) and saying it means a whole bunch of other things. If I asked a priest if they considers themself a servant of god, they would likely agree. That in no way endorses the other historical baggage you tie it to.

If you want to consider this discussion you can PM me, as it seems completely ill-suited for a discussion in Dark Sun, a setting without gods.

Heh ... not to be pedantic. But a "priest" (Roman priest?) was literally a bureaucrat of Roman imperialism.

Not every religion is about hierarchy, servitude, and empire.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Heh ... not to be pedantic. But a "priest" (Roman priest?) was literally a bureaucrat of Roman imperialism.

Not every religion is about hierarchy, servitude, and empire.

I didn't say every religion was. All I said is that the word "serve" does not = every meaning you attribute to it. A word can have both positive and negative meanings.

 

[Haldrik]

I didn't say every religion was. All I said is that the word "serve" does not = every meaning you attribute to it. A word can have both positive and negative meanings.

I agree, "serve" can be understood in positive ways. For example, according to some sacred traditions, because God is the only king, no human can ever be an oppressor. Only equality among humans is legitimate.

My point was mainly, in a culture that lacks an institution of servitude, the concept of "serve" lacks significance, or even is alien.

 

[Zardnaar]

Thinking more on the Templar perhaps make them a background a'la Ravnica guilds.

Put some appropriate spells on the the background. Probably lightning bolt and some investigate type spells.

Templar
Templars serve the Sorcerer Kings. Most are Clerics (war) with a hand of warlock and wizards as special agents".

Something like that. Maybe put some requirements on it such as spellcasting or pact class feature.

 

[Haldrik]

With regard to Dark Sun:

The Templar religion that "worships" the sorcerer-king is a hierarchical servitude. A kind of polytheism. There is a king that citizens must serve within a culture of slavery.



By contrast, the religion of the Dark Sun druids is animistic. The extended family of a clan informs their experience. Animists perceive the features of nature as members of the wider community. Humans negotiate with a wellspring, mountain waterfall, river valley, plant, or animal in the same way that one clan might negotiate with an other clan. Sometimes a feature of nature might even be a member of a human family. Each feature has its own personality, its own mind.



Each of the four elements has its own behaviors and personality. (In my reallife sacred traditions: water=compassion, fire=justice, air=balance, earth=pragmatism.) Each element is its own state of mind.

Altho the Templars are religious, they ultimately derive their power from the elements by exploiting them by Arcane means. In some sense, the exploitation of the properties inherent to each element is a kind of enslavement of the element.

By contrast, the elemental clerics are animistic, inviting each element to become a member of the sacred community. There is a loving relationship with the element. It is more egalitarian. These members cooperate to further each others goals.

The element remains devoid of personification. The element is a mind, yet is an inhuman one. It is a force, sometimes a philosophical principle.

While mainly animistic, the elemental clerics may also exhibit traditions of a kind of psionic monotheism. They perceive the four elements as manifestations from the force of the infinite mind beyond.



Accordingly, the religion of the druids is more this-worldly and attuned with nature while they commune with a landscape feature, while the religion of the clerics is more abstract, transcendental, and mystical, while they form a symbiotic relationship with a particular element.



Within Dark Sun, I am perceiving the Psionic power source as "normal", and there being no separation between the Psionic and Divine power sources. While the Psionic focuses on the power of ones own mind, the Divine focuses on the collective power of a sacred community of psionic minds.

I almost want to say: Dark Sun Psionic tends to be Chaotic, being individualist but potentially cooperative. Dark Sun Divine tends to be Lawful, being collectivist but potentially egalitarian.

 

[rgoodbb]

I'm really, really, really torn.

I hate the idea of Paladins in Dark Sun.

But I am so warming to the idea that an Oath to the SK as a Templar fits so beautifully.