Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
An Oath of the Ancients Paladin in DS would be an aggressive protector of the land.
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D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun
- Thread starter rgoodbb
- Start date
humble minion
Legend
I could very easily see an Oath of Ancients paladin in the service of the Oba of Gulg, or as one of the halflings of the Ringing Mountains (the tenets of the oath might need to be changed, but the ability set works really nicely). There might be some among the thri-kreen as well, especially if you go with the whole 'ancient Kreen empire in the western grasslands' thing from the lore.
Remathilis
Legend
Let go your hate and embrace the beauty of the madness. [emoji39]
LuisCarlos17f
Legend
If the board we forget the canon elements we don't like, for example we can allow faithless divine spellcasters in DS, for example the wardern as primal defender class could be like the user of a biotech simbiont artifact created by the rhul-thaun, something like the bionids from Spelljammer, or the manga Guyver. If I want I can tell an excuse for the Athasian aasimars: after a time in the Gray the sould with a pure heart are reborn in the land within the wind as aasimars. Drows? Former elf slaves who rebelled against their masters, the shadow spiders, or one of this proclaims herself propeht and started a religious war between their people. Or new spirits are created when an artificial object is very old, like the Japanese tuskumokamis.
Athas is a too hard world for the hopeless atheism. City-states have got official cults, and the wild tribes their own shamans speaking with ancestor spirits. Even some daikaijus as the elemental drakes or krakens from the silt sea could become demigods. DS is perfect for something as xianhian novels about cultivators who want to become xian("transcended inmortal").
A 5th Ed DS can't be only crunch, but the lore has to offer new things. And WotC's plans for D&D lines are as multimedia franchise. Hasbro is wishing to use DS for an action-live teleserie as Disney+'s "the Mandalorian", but it is not only to hire good scripters, but a right worldbuilding what allow different doors.
What if the cataclysm what caused the end of the blue age wasn't an accident but a sabotage by supernatural forces? And a time-traveler killing Rajaat would be useless because a special power choses a new warbringer/first sorcerer.
It would be interesting DS for the cleasing wars, where the characters are time-travelers from Athas or other world, maybe from a different crystal sphere next to Athas.
Athas is a too hard world for the hopeless atheism. City-states have got official cults, and the wild tribes their own shamans speaking with ancestor spirits. Even some daikaijus as the elemental drakes or krakens from the silt sea could become demigods. DS is perfect for something as xianhian novels about cultivators who want to become xian("transcended inmortal").
A 5th Ed DS can't be only crunch, but the lore has to offer new things. And WotC's plans for D&D lines are as multimedia franchise. Hasbro is wishing to use DS for an action-live teleserie as Disney+'s "the Mandalorian", but it is not only to hire good scripters, but a right worldbuilding what allow different doors.
What if the cataclysm what caused the end of the blue age wasn't an accident but a sabotage by supernatural forces? And a time-traveler killing Rajaat would be useless because a special power choses a new warbringer/first sorcerer.
It would be interesting DS for the cleasing wars, where the characters are time-travelers from Athas or other world, maybe from a different crystal sphere next to Athas.
What does elemental cleric religion look like? What are the beliefs? How are the customs? Who are the sacred community?
2e
• Four elements: water, fire, air, and earth.
• Each cleric − and each congregation of a cleric − especially reveres one of these four elements.
• The water cleric is the most socially influencial, but all four elementalists are equally powerful magically
4e
• Elementalism = Primal → animism
How are the clerics different from the druids? The four elements are inhuman. Elements feel impersonal. Thus clerics are more iconoclastic. By contrast, animals and even plants and landscapes exhibit more personality. Thus druids are more about personal relationships with the features of natures.
Loose inspiration from reallife Daoism feels useful for comparison, where the "cosmic forces" are assertive Yang and receptive Yin. But the Dao is itself a harmony that transcends and includes both.
Consider Avatar The Last Airbender.
For the Dark Sun elemental clerics, each element is a fundamental "cosmic force". All that exists physically and mentally are made out of these four forces.
The concept invites a "fifth element" that is itself a harmony that transcends and includes the other four elements. A kind of Dao. Namely, "force".
Fifth element: force, gravity, ether, spirit, consciousness, soul, quintessence.
In a psionic context, this "cosmic" "force" is telekinetic. The force is inherently conscious. Psionic abilities are sacred, as a foundation of reality. There is a nexus between the "conscious observer" and the manifestations of this physical world. The clerics view gravity itself as a form of telekinetic force.
Relating to soul, this transcendent force relates to healing via ki and persistence of consciousness.
The clerics are iconoclastic and mystical, seeking to expand their mind further, to commune with the infinite mind force that includes all mind forces.
The fifth element focuses the intention and mystical contemplation. A choice of one of the four elements focuses the action and practical skills.
The goal is the fifth element. The means is one of the four elements.
This infinite mind force manifests the four the elements.
To manifest an elemental power, such as pyrokinesis, is to unify ones own mind with the infinite mind beyond, which manifests this fire primordially.
To manifest an elemental is the mystical technique.
The Clerics of each element are friendly rivals. Their respective ideals (perhaps pragmatism and justice, balance and compassion) are conflictive. The congregations tend to be competitive with each other, trying to outdo each other, but occasionally cross the line into hate.
Because fire and air tend to be "active", while earth and water tend to be "passive", game playability might benefit from elemental coupling: earth-fire versus air-water. Thus the rivalry is mainly between the Clerics of Earth and Fire versus the Clerics of Air and Water. Often stone-shaping versus weather-control.
The Clerics are egalitarian, generally lay-led. Most communities elect someone to lead the service. Each community has its own electorial traditions. Some communities take turns each week to lead the ceremonies. Some communities have an incumbent, repeatedly reelected, often a clan elder. Some communities require experienced Clerics, with one or more heading a congregation, but layleaders might still be voted in to do particular ceremonies.
Congregations tend to form alliances with other congregations. Some alliances are fairly organized, with representatives from each congregation forming a council, whose authority is generally respected. Other alliances are little more than traderoutes. Political territories are a variagated patchwork, where local clans overrule any other consideration.
Each cleric is an elemental mystic. Likewise all of the members of a congregation tend to be contemplative and ecstatic, seeking a deeper meaning for their own psionic capabilities. Elemental manifestations inform most of the religious ceremonies. Sometimes a nonpsionic becomes a member of the congregation because the wider culture reveres psionics generally. Typically, the congregants are themselves psionic elemental practitioners.
It is Rare for psionic characters to manifest "flashy" elemental powers, but these sacred elemental communities encourage such features.
Sacred spaces are traditionally outdoors anywhere, high altitude for air if possible, ceremonial bonfires or brazers, or cups of precious water. Rare permanent structures are known, whose architecture and furnishings artistically arrange patterns in the rhythm of the element.
Mechanics.
• The Divine Elemental Cleric employs the Psionic tag to cast a spell without the material component / holy symbol.
• Each Cleric Element gets its own Domain with its own Domain Spell List: Earth-Fire and Air-Water − including elemental cantrip.
• A Background for each elemental congregant might also confer a certain spell: Earth-Fire Background, Air-Water Background.
• . . .
2e
• Four elements: water, fire, air, and earth.
• Each cleric − and each congregation of a cleric − especially reveres one of these four elements.
• The water cleric is the most socially influencial, but all four elementalists are equally powerful magically
4e
• Elementalism = Primal → animism
How are the clerics different from the druids? The four elements are inhuman. Elements feel impersonal. Thus clerics are more iconoclastic. By contrast, animals and even plants and landscapes exhibit more personality. Thus druids are more about personal relationships with the features of natures.
Loose inspiration from reallife Daoism feels useful for comparison, where the "cosmic forces" are assertive Yang and receptive Yin. But the Dao is itself a harmony that transcends and includes both.
Consider Avatar The Last Airbender.
For the Dark Sun elemental clerics, each element is a fundamental "cosmic force". All that exists physically and mentally are made out of these four forces.
The concept invites a "fifth element" that is itself a harmony that transcends and includes the other four elements. A kind of Dao. Namely, "force".
Fifth element: force, gravity, ether, spirit, consciousness, soul, quintessence.
In a psionic context, this "cosmic" "force" is telekinetic. The force is inherently conscious. Psionic abilities are sacred, as a foundation of reality. There is a nexus between the "conscious observer" and the manifestations of this physical world. The clerics view gravity itself as a form of telekinetic force.
Relating to soul, this transcendent force relates to healing via ki and persistence of consciousness.
The clerics are iconoclastic and mystical, seeking to expand their mind further, to commune with the infinite mind force that includes all mind forces.
The fifth element focuses the intention and mystical contemplation. A choice of one of the four elements focuses the action and practical skills.
The goal is the fifth element. The means is one of the four elements.
This infinite mind force manifests the four the elements.
To manifest an elemental power, such as pyrokinesis, is to unify ones own mind with the infinite mind beyond, which manifests this fire primordially.
To manifest an elemental is the mystical technique.
The Clerics of each element are friendly rivals. Their respective ideals (perhaps pragmatism and justice, balance and compassion) are conflictive. The congregations tend to be competitive with each other, trying to outdo each other, but occasionally cross the line into hate.
Because fire and air tend to be "active", while earth and water tend to be "passive", game playability might benefit from elemental coupling: earth-fire versus air-water. Thus the rivalry is mainly between the Clerics of Earth and Fire versus the Clerics of Air and Water. Often stone-shaping versus weather-control.
The Clerics are egalitarian, generally lay-led. Most communities elect someone to lead the service. Each community has its own electorial traditions. Some communities take turns each week to lead the ceremonies. Some communities have an incumbent, repeatedly reelected, often a clan elder. Some communities require experienced Clerics, with one or more heading a congregation, but layleaders might still be voted in to do particular ceremonies.
Congregations tend to form alliances with other congregations. Some alliances are fairly organized, with representatives from each congregation forming a council, whose authority is generally respected. Other alliances are little more than traderoutes. Political territories are a variagated patchwork, where local clans overrule any other consideration.
Each cleric is an elemental mystic. Likewise all of the members of a congregation tend to be contemplative and ecstatic, seeking a deeper meaning for their own psionic capabilities. Elemental manifestations inform most of the religious ceremonies. Sometimes a nonpsionic becomes a member of the congregation because the wider culture reveres psionics generally. Typically, the congregants are themselves psionic elemental practitioners.
It is Rare for psionic characters to manifest "flashy" elemental powers, but these sacred elemental communities encourage such features.
Sacred spaces are traditionally outdoors anywhere, high altitude for air if possible, ceremonial bonfires or brazers, or cups of precious water. Rare permanent structures are known, whose architecture and furnishings artistically arrange patterns in the rhythm of the element.
Mechanics.
• The Divine Elemental Cleric employs the Psionic tag to cast a spell without the material component / holy symbol.
• Each Cleric Element gets its own Domain with its own Domain Spell List: Earth-Fire and Air-Water − including elemental cantrip.
• A Background for each elemental congregant might also confer a certain spell: Earth-Fire Background, Air-Water Background.
• . . .
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In my mind, if we use the paladin framework, and an oath that fits as a Templar...
Then there are no paladins in Dark Sun.
humble minion
Legend
There's a lot about this in the old 2e cleric sourcebook Earth Air Fire and Water.
According to that (largely excellent) book, there isn't really an elemental religion as such. The elements are not worshipped by a community so much as they're bargained with, or the demands of the clerics are accepted in exchange for magical assistance. Elemental clerics are much more inspired by anchorites or holy hermits - weird and possibly crazed people who find ecstatic inspiration in the raw wild places of pure elemental power (mountains, volcanoes, springs, wind-whipped rock spires, etc). They bargain with the elemental spirits - power in exchange for promoting the well-being of the element and its spirits, which is normally defined as opposing defiling and the degradation of the environment. The earth spirits want earth to be fertile and un-defiled, the water spirits want lakes and rivers, the fire spirits want grasslands and forests that can burn and be rejuvenated, etc etc. And then there's the paraelemental spirits of silt, sun, magma, and rain who (with the obvious exception of rain) represent the actual current-day reality of Athas and grow strong from the desolation.
(Yes, this interpretation obviously contradicts the portrayal of the most prominent follower of the paraelements in the setting, the sun cleric Caelum from the Prism Pentad, but since when has Athasian cosmology ever been consistent?)
Anyway, this all does sound very druidic, you're 100% right, and it's a good observation about the inhuman nature of the spirits that elemental clerics deal with vs the very personalised ones that druids work.. From a social point of view, Athas generally reverses the conventional roles of druid and cleric. Druids are 'think local' community-builders, clerics are outsider weirdos in the wilderness.
Edit: and of course the niche for centralised, hierarchical religion is taken up by the templarate, and they don't look kindly on competition...
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Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
My character for the 4e Ashes of Athas campaign started as "Druid of the Natural (undefiled) World" but by the time the campaign finished, my decisions were turning him into a "Druid of Silt". He did not 'worship' the silt but through experience he knew its properties and via the primal spirits he could manipulate it.
If I can get hold of it, I will check it out.
A not "really" religion sounds more like a philosophy. Consider reallife philosophical Buddhism. But Daoism works pretty well. Dao can often be philosophical and sometimes maveric, but still engages concrete examples of yang and yin, and even has its own elementalism. Daoism is a religion, of course. But its customs include things like Feng Shui art and architecture, and cooking skills. Daoist alchemy includes medicine, healing, and methods to become immortal (often leaving the mortal body behind). Loose inspiration from Daoist practices seems great for Dark Sun religion.
Bargaining sounds more personal, than impersonal.
I view harmony with an element as more like Zen, becoming the element. And doing so by achieving the Dao, oneness with the telekinetic force of the infinite mind. Compare Avatar The Last Airbender.
Holy hermits works great. Iconoclasts can feel detached, mystics contemplating the no-thing-ness of the infinite mind can feel out-of-touch. Journeys to the wilderness where a particular element dominates feels awesome. Flatlands or caves for earth. Blasted deserts or volcanos for fire. Atop steep cliffs for Air. Water is so precious − any water anywhere.
But even holy hermits have communities.
I would leave any personifying spirits to the Druids. Except for actual Elementals from the Elemental Planes. But even then, when a Cleric summons an Elemental, I would flavor the Elemental as inhuman. Simply shifting element, never forming a recognizable shape.
The Elementals are made out of an element, similar to the way a human is made out of organic chemistry. In a way, an Elemental is a psionic mind that is telekinetically animating the element. I view the Cleric as attuning to the element itself at a deeper level. Of course, the mind of an Elemental creature is also of interest. The mind of an Elemental is repqpp to the infinite mind that manifests all elements. Perhaps some Elementals are actually transmogrified Clerics who gave up their Human nature to take on an Elemental nature.
Paraelementals seem nonsystematic. 5e has things like Storm and Smoke as paraelementals. If elements divide between Air-Water versus Earth-Fire, then Magma and Rain the primary paraelementals. Because Rain is aspirational, perhaps it gets watery silt and airy sun instead.
Magma: earth-fire
Rain: air-water
− Silt: water-earth
− Sun: air-fire
Magma is valuable because it can forge stone weapons and even shape stone armor. For example, weapons of obsidian, quarts, etcetera are razor sharp and effective. And can deal serious slashing and piercing damage, until breakage.
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Zardnaar
Legend
I would dump paraelemental clerics.
Not really needed, the rest of that book is fairly solid.
Mostly I would focus on the first boxed set, add stuff that's appropriate for the setting.
Ignore mist 2E metaplot stuff, cherry pick the good bits from books like Dune Trader and Earth, Air, Fire, Water.
Things like Dragon Kings book quietly dropped or cherry picked for NPC stuff.
Some classes and archetypes renamed. Paladin's were excluded because if the LG thing, that's no longer relevant.
While rare the Avenger one can serve a Sorcerer King and the Ancient one can serve the spirits if the land, name them warden or something.
Or have Avengers serving the spirits if the land in an avenging role, take the fight to the SKs while Wardens focus on defending groves and/or druids.
Might have to put up a revised Darksun thread on mechanics.
Not really needed, the rest of that book is fairly solid.
Mostly I would focus on the first boxed set, add stuff that's appropriate for the setting.
Ignore mist 2E metaplot stuff, cherry pick the good bits from books like Dune Trader and Earth, Air, Fire, Water.
Things like Dragon Kings book quietly dropped or cherry picked for NPC stuff.
Some classes and archetypes renamed. Paladin's were excluded because if the LG thing, that's no longer relevant.
While rare the Avenger one can serve a Sorcerer King and the Ancient one can serve the spirits if the land, name them warden or something.
Or have Avengers serving the spirits if the land in an avenging role, take the fight to the SKs while Wardens focus on defending groves and/or druids.
Might have to put up a revised Darksun thread on mechanics.
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