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D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

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Umbran

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We aren't designing 6e. It's a discussion about what sorts of things, feasible and unfeasible, we feel should be in 6e. It doesn't take playtesting and feedback for that.

There is a difference between discussing "what sorts of things" broadly, perhaps with possible examples, and demanding folks commit to a specific set of things - the latter is designing 6e, and does seem to have been what was being asked.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
There is a difference between discussing "what sorts of things" broadly, perhaps with possible examples and demanding folks commit to a specific set of things - the latter is designing 6e, and does seem to have been what was being asked.

I can’t speak for others but I can say that’s not what I was asking for.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
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I can’t speak for others but I can say that’s not what I was asking for.

Funny. You asked, specifically and explicitly, what a user thought should be in the 6e PHB.

That's a demand for a specific set of things in the next edition.

If that's not what you intended, you present your desires... poorly. Work on your delivery, please.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Funny. You asked, specifically and explicitly, what a user thought should be in the 6e PHB.

That's a demand for a specific set of things in the next edition.

If that's not what you intended, you present your desires... poorly. Work on your delivery, please.

that’s a request for concrete things they want to see. That is what this discussion is about.

asking for concrete thoughts and ideas isn’t asking for a complete design of 6e.

my delivery was fine IMO. But I believe any comments defending that stance wouldeither be against the rules or too close to the gray area. So we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Also, while I'm talking about being welcoming to furries, it would really help if there was a canine race. The most plentiful types of furries are canines and felines, so having those two represented would be great. Having an open ended animal/person race that let you pick from a list of features to make any type of animal person would be ideal, but just a canine and feline race is a good start.

BECMI, and the later 2e conversion of Mystara had anthropomorphic canine folk called Lupin as both a monster and a player character class/race. So, they certainly have precedence and would easily be brought back to 5e.
 

I disagree. All three discussions I participated in - the orcs, the drow and the shaman discussions, all reached a consensus point. Fairly quickly. Reaching a reasonable consensus takes about five or ten pages.

It's the other 50 pages of "whataboutit's" that cloud the issue. Once you can reduce the noise to signal ratio down to a reasonable level, reaching a consensus has been pretty simple and relatively easy.

Like I said, it's 10 pages of reaching a consensus, 40 pages of fairly pointless "whataboutit's" and 10 pages of people who cannot be bothered reading the thread or doing their own research asking for the proofs to yet again be brought forward for examination resulting in yet again a round of the same questions that had already been answered.

Strip away all that cruft? Consensus is rather easy.
Sorry, this is not at all the case. To be frank, you seem to do this a lot, declare your opinion to be the consensus and ignore the massive amount of evidence to the contrary. And I say this even though I agree with you on what should be done with this issue.

But the more radical opinions are not strawmen or whataboutism. Do you have half of the forum on ignore? A lot of posters are actually arguing for removal of racial bonuses or even more radical changes in the name of inclusivity. You can't just pretend that they don't exist. @Remathilis described the situation absolutely perfectly.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
The problem is:
Where do you draw the line...

Where do you draw the line? Where is the end to that slippery slope? Are alligators potentially explosive?

There is a lot of handwringing over ideas bandied about by different members of the community, various individuals preferences, unrelated issues, and most importantly things that WotC hasn't said they are going to do. Where the line is drawn depends on the particular individual, but the majority of the conversation isn't really applicable to what WotC is actually doing or plan to do so that variable line remains entirely hypothetical and unmoored from our current reality. Let that sink in.

Let that sink in.jpg
 

Again, they aren't perfect, but Shifters have both the Wildhunt and Longtooth, which are more canine in appearance and ability. Far from perfect, but they are there.

There are some furries that really like the lycanthrope idea, but for most ( myself included ) it's kinda worst than no option at all. There are two core ideas to the archetype of Lycanthropes and Shifters. The first is a duality of mind/soul. They're not a singular being, they're an sentient being and an animal forcibly inhabiting the same body. There is always a war between the two, at best a shifter simply finds a balance between the two. Second, they are shapeshifters. As shapeshifters they have no one natural form. On top of that Shifters only exhibit their more animal like features for very short durations. Both of these concepts reinforce how unnatural they are. They're not one harmonious normal being, they're multible things at once. A furry usually wants their furry form to be a normal part of the world.

Serious question: Is not presenting furries and orcs as standard PC races uninclusive?

Saying it would be uninclusive would be an overstatement, but if you want to be as welcoming as possible you need to have those races, and as many others as you can fit in.

Here's some things to think about. I haven't told my parents or brother that I'm a furry. It's not that I think they'd have a problem with it, they're accepting people. It's just that when you tell people it starts a long and sometimes uncomfortable process. First you have to dispel the idea that it's just about people boinking each other in mascot costumes, when that's barely even a thing. Then you have to explain what furries are, and take on the responsibility of being a good advocate for them. You become their lens through which they view the idea, and that can be a heavy burden for some. Then you have to go through the slow process of it becoming normal. Like they might at first try to overcompensate and bring it up all the time in conversations, or buy me things like a hat with cat ears ( please god no ). Eventually it just becomes a normal thing, but it takes time. I'd probably feel better if I went through it, but it's easier to just keep it private.

Now imagine a furry comes to a gaming group and the race they want to play is in a supliment, or worse needs to be home-brewed, and naturally the group asks why they want to play that. Right there in session zero, with people you might not know, you face the choice to have the conversation about being a furry. If a furry race is allowed by default, there is less of a chance that you'd have to justify why you want to play it. Leaving the furry conversation to a later date when you have built a rapport with that group and feel comfortable. It wouldn't be guaranteed, the group might still be playing in a setting where they're not present, but what's in the Player's handbook moves the needle about what's a normal part of the game.

If you create a new default setting for the 6th edition Player's Handbook it wouldn't be difficult to have a large number of races included. Currently the race entries spend a lot of words describing the history of that race and it's place in the world. That's all information that could be shifted to a culture entry instead. This would mean that the default setting would have to have cultures and nations made up of many different races, so no more exclusively elvish kingdoms and so forth. Then you could have about 6 different cultures detailed in the book that any race could belong to, with about 3 pages dedicated to each explaining their history and beliefs, and any mechanical benefits that culture provides. Each race entry could then be fitted maybe 2 to one page, maybe more. That would make it pretty easy to include up to 20 different races.
 


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