D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

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I reject that notion. I don't agree that naming Lovecraft in a list of inspirational authors is equal to support of all his ideas, including his most repugnant ones. Just as listing Heinlein in a list of inspirational authors is not an approval of his ideas on fascism. I also disagree with the idea of discouraging people from reading books that contain racism or fascism.

I don't believe in cancel culture at all. Only by exposing ourselves to these works, and forming opinions about them, can we grow as people. Lovecraft remains an important author in the horror genre from whom dozens of modern writers take inspiration, most of which (or so I hope) are not horrible racists.

Author Stephen King has stated numerous times that several of his stories were inspired by the works of Lovecraft. Does that mean Stephen King supports Lovecraft's bigotry and racism?
I've observed a somewhat troubling trend where it seems like if you put put forth an idea in any context that isn't overwhelmingly negative, that means that you support that idea 100%. Like, for example in Civilization games, you could potentially run a fascist government (with policies such as, Music Censorship, Total War, Raj, Press Gangs, Police State, Propaganda, Gunboat Diplomacy, Martial Law, Native Conquest, etc. And that's just from Civ VI.) Some people, rather than think this as just the game flexing some historical cred and adding familiar names to game mechanics, means that they developers of the game tactility endorse those things.
 

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Angsty; no; again, let's not get hysterical, especially when it comes to denial:

Azzy said:
"I think that it's because many people become rather tetchy when it comes to religion (especially their own)"

Perhaps you are having a bit of difficulty here. My sentence uses a different verb than what you seem to think it uses. Note that I use "become", not "are". I also used a qualifier about when the they "become" tetchy. If I had said, "Many people become upset when you try to make them eat dog food," whould you also construe said people as upset when you call them upset (in the absence of feeding them dog food) as you did as you did in your initial replied, "Maybe due to them being referred to as "tetchy", especially if it's "their" own."

I can only think that you would get angsty over that sentence if you are trying to read into it something that's not there, and then take it as some sort of indictment of some sort. There is nothing controversial about my statement—many people do get very tetchy about religion, very quickly, when it is brought up or expressed. This is a Known Fact™. It's also why there's a very common adage of, “Never discuss politics or religion in polite company.”

So, as you say, let's not get hysterical here.
 

I reject that notion. I don't agree that naming Lovecraft in a list of inspirational authors is equal to support of all his ideas, including his most repugnant ones. Just as listing Heinlein in a list of inspirational authors is not an approval of his ideas on fascism. I also disagree with the idea of discouraging people from reading books that contain racism or fascism.

Disagree all you want, but without some sort of disclaimer, you are inviting liability.

I don't believe in cancel culture at all.

That's okay, cancel culture doesn't believe in you, either. Bad joke aside, "cancel culture" really isn't a thing—or, at least, it isn't a new thing. (Remember when the Dixie Chicks got "cancelled" a couple decades ago?). Ultimately, "cancel culture" is just a new term used to disparage the ire and boycotting of something that one personally likes.

Only by exposing ourselves to these works, and forming opinions about them, can we grow as people.

Sure, to an extent (we don't need to watch Birth of a Nation to understand that the KKK is bad), and in proper context. If this reading list was part of an academic discussion on racism, this would be entirely appropriate. However, the context here is a reading list for a game that is marketed to a wide audience of people of ages, "races", sexes, genders, etc. Also, does someone that has been raped need to be suggested that they read a book that features rape, never mind a positive depiction of rape? So, then, are we okay with suggesting that someone that has been on the receiving end of racism read a book that oozes with racism? If we were to include such a book on the list, we could at least have the decency to clearly not that it contains some awful crap.

Lovecraft remains an important author in the horror genre from whom dozens of modern writers take inspiration, most of which (or so I hope) are not horrible racists.

That's pretty irrelevant to a reading list for a game.

Author Stephen King has stated numerous times that several of his stories were inspired by the works of Lovecraft. Does that mean Stephen King supports Lovecraft's bigotry and racism?
No, and I'm sure that he'd be quite up front that, despite influencing him, ol' H.P. was a steaming pile of trash as a human and that his books are also laced with trash ideology. He'd also probably have the decency to let you know about Lovecraft's nastiness before suggesting you read his work.
 




Is Lovecraft's work defined by his racism and xenophobia, or by his world building and Cthulhu mythos? Which of these two things is it you think people take inspiration from?

There are a whole lot of authors that have problematic views, but does that mean we must discard all their work? Can we not cherrypick what we do like when looking for inspiration?

Disclaimer - I'm the one who has repeatedly mentioned his children when talking about Lovecraft. I've done so very deliberately since, at least by two separate posters in these threads, I've been accused of fabricating the issue. That I couldn't possibly be directly affected by this sort of thing, thus, I'm only doing it to make myself feel good. Since, that's not true, and that I am directly affected by issues like this, perhaps I can now comment without having to justify myself to those who would turn these conversations into merry go rounds. Disclaimer

No, of course not. And, let's be 100% clear here. NO ONE is suggesting that Lovecraft be banned or anything like that. Like you say, his works are an important part of the history of the genre, and, anyone who is interested in the history of the genre should read them. (Even if personally it makes me want to wash my eyes out with bleach every time I've done so) There are no calls for censorship here. No one is advocating "discarding" anything.

Now, what is being discussed is a list of inspirational reading in the Players Handbook of the Dungeons and Dragons game. This is not an academic paper. It is not a historical paper either. It's simply a reading list of suggested authors for DM's and Players to read to get ideas on how to have a great game of D&D. Lord of the Rings, Frietz Leiber, Elizabeth Bear and many others. And, frankly, most of the authors on the list are perfectly fine and can be included without objection. However, yes, Lovecraft is on this list. Without context or commentary. He's held up as equal to all these other fantastic authors which fill the fantasy genre.

I'm not sure that removing his name would greatly reduce the inspiration new players could get from reading these works. I mean, if you actually read all the authors on the list, except for Lovecraft, you'd have a very strong grounding in the genre. You'd have hit the high points, including Mythos stories, without having to get smacked in the face with authors telling you that you or your children or your spouse, or someone you know, is an abomination of nature that should have been strangled at birth.

Are we actually losing anything inspirational by removing Lovecraft's name from the list of Inspirational Reading in the Dungeons and Dragons Game? I don't believe that we are. I think we gain far more than we lose. This isn't about removing Lovecraft from the canon of genre works. Of course he has a place there. You cannot seriously be a scholar of fantasy genre without reading Lovecraft. But, this list isn't about making people into fantasy genre scholars. It's about readings that will inspire your game. Not referencing Lovecraft, IMO, will not result in poorer games, and might just make it a tiny bit easier to introduce the game to people.
 

And yet American society has been pretty tolerant of intolerance up until about 10 years ago with zero movement towards being destroyed by the intolerant. In fact, the intolerant were marginalized and made virtually irrelevant up until about 4 years ago when the intolerance of the intolerant hit a new high and invigorated the intolerant.

That's a very rose-tinted view of modern US history you have there.
 

As a possible substitution, can I suggest that we remove H. P. Lovecraft and replace it with C. S. Lewis? I think there's a fair body of work that has been inspired by Lewis in the genre and, really, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe features a pretty typical adventuring party.

Another possible option might be Mary Stewart and her Arthurian saga which has launched an entire sub-genre in fantasy - Arthurian fantasy.
 


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