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D&D 5E Rejecting the Premise in a Module

I use maps for combat almost 100% of the time; but I don't need much time and certainly not a printer to make them: I draw them on the fly as required, on the gridded chalkboard that is our gaming table.
Confession time: I am the world's worst drawer. If the room is not square, then I will mess it up. That is why programs online are important for me. But if you can pull it off, that is awesome. Skill like that is great to have.
I don't count that as prep time in any case. That said, there's already enough minis here (painted or not) that if you can't find one that suits you're likely being far too fussy. :)
(y) Too true.
Time as in maybe a minute or two for a complex map, plus another minute if I have to dig out the right minis for the foes (rather than just use generic pawns, which I do about half the time).
I hear you. The time I do with maps and minis is never in game time. It is the: Alright, they are doing this which means it might go these three ways. So I need those giant scorpions and the canyon map. I also need the griffin and the cliff map in case they do it this way. And I need the tomb they are heading towards and all the creatures in it. Might as well grab the NPC's and the city map in case the tomb doesn't last as long as I think it will. Then I stare at the map and think about possible implications - but not for too long. :)
Some of these are quite valid and I'd guess we all have to do them: 1 and 12 in particular, and lesser versions of 2 and 5.
I agree. These are the foundation of the house. And you can use them to build an entire house.
3 - If I'm running a hard-line AP this should never be a problem. If the players get stumped they get stumped. If they find an unforeseen solution then good for them. If they want to go off on side quests then I'm not running (or they're not playing) a hard-line AP any more, as a hard AP somewhat requires both the players and DM staying firmly on the rails in order to work (which is in part why I largely eschew them).
4 - I expect the module to provide me the required DM-side maps. I don't expect battlemaps nor do I prepare them ahead of time if for no other reason than I can't guarantee that the bit I map would be the place where the combat actually occurs. Battle maps are what the chalkboard is for.
6 - no matter what I'm running I'm going to run it neutrally, and quite intentionally not tailor it to specific players and-or characters. It's up to the players to factor in their characters' interactions with the module elements once they're introduced, not me.
7 - I admire this but most of the time I just make something up on the fly. Rarely, I'll rehearse something; but whenever I do it doesn't come off in play nearly as well as when I rehearse it, largely because in play I'm too busy trying to "remember my lines" instead of just improvising them like I should.
8 - see 6. If they do something off-script that has negative (or positive!) consequences, so be it.
9 - see 6. I expect the module to tell me what treasure they're going to find, and that's what they'll find. If the module doesn't give me specifics then I-as-DM have a right to be annoyed, as specifics are what I'm paying for.
10 - I do not (and if I have my way, will never) run online unless it's completely TotM; in part because of the amount of prep time it demands.
11 - again admirable, but IMO not necessary. If I have music going it's just background music; and while pictures are nice it's extremely rare that a picture exactly conveys the scene you're describing unless a) the picture is specifically of that scene e.g. it's included in the module, or b) the picture came first and you've built the scene around it (homebrew only; this can't happen in a hard AP as you're not building the scenes there, the module is).
It is admirable you can do these things so effortlessly. Experienced DM's like us have it easy in the fact that we can run the game without doing all the above steps I listed. We can roll with whatever the players want, make something up on the spot, then roll some more. But, if I have time, my preference is to do most of these steps. I was just explaining to Rune how it might take two hours. Lastly, it is natural to think the AP should include all of the stuff listed above. But, and I will never forget it, when I started to play with people who liked maps and minis (3e), I was like, holy cow - this AP is missing a whole lot of stuff!
My overarching question is this, however: given all the prep you're doing wouldn't it take you less time (and save you some money) to just design and write your own APs? And by 'write' I don't mean in nearly the same level of detail as the published modules; just maps (which you're doing anyway) and enough scratch notes on each encounter to get you by.
Well, I do both. Some years I will write all my own stuff, and others I jump into AP's. When there is no free time, I don't do all those things. I write my notes and go. But, when there is time, I do it all. But the preference lately has been to write my own stuff. But even then, it starts to get absurd. I posted earlier, my last AP was lengthy. But it was fun to write. And the nice part about it is I had already play tested it with two groups. So writing it after playtesting helped make the path delineations more streamlined. (There are always multiple paths. :))
Thing is, forcing the players down a railroad is what running these APs is all about. :) Otherwise you'd not be running them: you'd be running sandbox or stand-alone adventures or hex-crawl or some other version of play where the players have far more choice in what their PCs do next than is given by a typical AP.
True again.
The very few times I've ever tried using anything like this I found it bogged things down to a complete halt as I kept having to take down and rebuild the pieces every time the party moved - which can happen an awful lot if-when they're in explore mode.

Never again. :)
They have magnetic bottoms now. :) So now you can build the house without watching it collapse. And yes, it used to happen all the time!
As written, however, the published APs don't suit what I do or the games I run; though I can mine them for individual adventures to drop in somewhere else (Princes of the Apocalypse is great for this!)
Fair enough. That is how many DM's I know use them. They'll take a mansion they like and throw it in their setting. It's all good. I have fun playing at their tables.
But the overall point could be this: the amazing flexibility D&D has, to be played so differently by so many different people, yet still build the same house; one with fun memories, high fives and maybe, just maybe, a little love.
 

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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
A member of my group tried to build the "home base" building in Dragon Heist and we found out that one fireplace pumps smoke straight into a wall, not past the fireplace upstairs. (Oops!) We had a good laugh about how the City Fire Inspectors have a permanent source of income, giving us Violation tickets.

OTOH, there are two rooms upstairs that are always warm.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This is very true. When I create my own material, I try to write it as if someone else is GM'ing. I know, huge time sink, but it is enjoyable. I am curious if anyone else does the same?
Only if I think what I've got might be worth publishing someday - I think so far I've done up four in complete form, formatted etc.; but I crash and burn on the maps: scanned-in hand-drawn maps look like crap and I'm no good at doing digital maps by hand (and too cheap to buy mapping software).
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Confession time: I am the world's worst drawer. If the room is not square, then I will mess it up. That is why programs online are important for me. But if you can pull it off, that is awesome. Skill like that is great to have.
The trick is not to sweat the picky details.

I'm running Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth right now, which is one irregular-shaped cavern after another. Those things are a pain to draw on the board if I want to exactly reflect the map in the module; so I don't worry too much about whether I've put an alcove in exactly the right place or whether I've made the chamber 5 feet too wide. Besides, the player will never know the difference anyway.

As long as I get the key elements right - the exits roughly in correct spatial relation to each other, the overall shape of the chamber more or less right, any significant elements included (e.g. an alcove where a monster hides) - the rest can largely be whatever.
 

And I said, I think it's very often neither the players nor the DM who are particularly responsible, as much as the module author is. I've seen a lot of bad modules, particularly APs, filled with bad assumptions and bad ideas. I've had to work extensively to fix them. I had to basically re-write an entire book-length adventure for Aeon/Trinity once, which was definitely more effort than just writing an adventure of similar length. I think if my brother had been Storyteller, he'd have run it, and then hit the car-crash section in the middle, and would have struggled to get through it. I did even with extensive re-writes.

The DM chose to run that adventure. The DM is still responsible.
 

Whenever I run any campaign, be it a sandbox or a module, I make sure my players and I are all on the same page. If I'm running a sandbox, then my players can (and should) expect me to be able to adapt to their radical choices. No single plot thread should hinge on one npc being alive, or whether the players follow up on a specific plothook or not.

If however I'm running a module, it limits the freedom the players will have, and so they shouldn't approach it as if it were a sandbox. I expect them to play the module that we all agreed to play. They shouldn't expect me to be able to take the adventure in a radically new direction on a whim, because that's just not the game we are running.

Any violation of that agreement, means that we should probably come together as a group and talk it over. If they want more freedom, then I'll need to adapt the campaign to that. It means more preparation for me as well. Ultimately I see it as the responsibility of the DM to make sure everyone is on the same page, and if not, to get them on the same page.
 


Rdm

Explorer
“It all goes back to what I stated earlier. There is no professional published AP from Pathfinder or D&D that can't be fun. And not in a sarcastic way, but fun. It all depends on the DM, the players and the chemistry between everyone. That's it. The material is professionally written, and it shows.”


If a section is quoted, and then called extreme, then what should be supposed. There is what you quoted. How is that proposition extreme? Is what you quoted NOT what you were calling ‘extreme’?
 


Compare a 5e AP to another company (maybe not Paizo or The old Masquerade books) and they are way above them in writing quality, design, logic, graphic design, artwork, encounter builds, etc. I am trying (through hyperbole) to say they are great compared to the other products out there.

So what products, specifically, are you saying are so inferior that they may 5E APs look like Shakespeare by comparison?

Badly written? Really. How?

Bad organisation, straight-up bad dialogue/description, TMI on totally meaningless stuff whilst barely describing core events, not understand their own timelines (often having impossible timelines), inconsistencies and contradictions, missing obvious approaches, and as I said actual massive logic-holes. Bad organisation and logic holes are pretty bad, because the former is very hard to fix, and the latter can ruin a part of the adventure to the point where it has to be re-written entirely (though more often requires minor re-writes). Missing obvious approaches goes to the heart the problem this thread is about too.

But then I get the feeling you'll say: "That doesn't support your argument, it only supports the fact that they sell a lot of books."

Yes, that's correct, because that is all it supports. Something selling doesn't prove anything, especially if it's a low-competition market.

The exact opposite could be said for your claim.

I think you mean "the same" because otherwise you're agreeing with me :) But that's not true, and this was my point about not wanting to argue with people who treat "vibes" as equal to logic. Your response to criticism is simply to accuse the other person, rather than to engage with it.

But, again, to run it as intended, takes time.

Making my point again! What you're describing is not "running it as intended". It's "running it the way Scott likes to run things". Almost none of that is "intended". That's a giant bullet-point list of things you enjoy doing. Some of them are even the opposite of "running it as intended", and are actual deviations (even if they improve your game). You literally can't claim you need to do almost any of that to "run it as intended".

I agree - most APs I've read are terribly organized, badly overwriten, and contain far too much content I'll never use, like historical and NPCs backgrounds the PCs will never discover, and far too little content that I need to run a game at the table, like lists, summaries, timelines, flowcharts, plot webs, etc. The root cause is that published adventures serve two masters - people will use them to run a game at the table, and people who use them as reading material.

Yes this is staggering sometimes. One DM I was talking to told me an AP he ran us through had most of a page of backstory for three minor NPCs it was unlikely the party would even talk to beyond "Which way did the baddie go?", which wasn't relevant to the plot, and which they were unwilling to discuss anyway (!!!), but didn't even have maps for half the encounters and was extremely badly organised.
 
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