Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Minigiant]

Could not much be done by granting higher power Battlemaster manoeuvres? Specify a Proficiency Bonus requirement of +4 or higher.

Again the point is that there are multiple ways to do a high level fighter.
So there should be multiple prestige classes and epic destinies

• Action Star
  • Bonus damage
  • Bonus uses of Action Surge and Second Wind
• Demigod
  • Bonuses to STR DEX and CON
  • Can go over 26 STR DEX and CON
  • Extra use of Indomitable
• Iron Hero
  • gets a magic weapon
  • gets a magic armor
  • gets bonus attunements
  • gets a special mount
• Mastermind
  • gets bonus Maneuvers and advanced Maneuvers
  • gets Expertise in 2 skills
  • gets bonus in INT WIS or CHA
• Legendary Lord
  • gets a Stronghold
  • gets followers
  • grants bonuses to nearby allies
  • Hellstorm Rocket Battery are core choice
• Sword Hero
  • "Fightin' Magic"

 

[Asisreo]

Except, spellcasters are also typically better in combat too.

I mean, sure, the Fighter can kill ten goblins with his sword, if he is 20th level and burns a chunk of his resources, he might even possibly be able to do it in 2 rounds.


Fireball does it in a single action, and by 20th level isn't even breaking a sweat for the Wizard.

Sounds good until the goblins start at a position to surround the enemy. Or just surprises the party, like goblins are made to do. Wizards can be good with AoE's. Not very good at taking them or resisting most effects in general. Even a 20th level wizard's greatest defense against a wisdom save is their +11 proficiency (if they went +5 wisdom which doesn't seem likely). And they're looking at saves in the upwards of DC 22-23.

Waiting" isn't a solution. It is losing.

Sure, they can't keep up the wall of force forever, but they know that to, so they are only trying to delay you until they can accomplish a goal. And your solution is to be delayed, because you have nothing that can do anything else.

There's no losing if your character isn't dead. Let them do whatever their goal is, kill them when you get out and clean up the mess.

It's some weird fixation on this imaginary narrative where you must do something the right way or else you've "failed."

This isn't a videogame. You can just do stuff the way your character would do them. Imagine a scenario where a level 20 team consisting of a Ranger, warlock, Rogue and Paladin must get to the Plane of Fire to prevent an Archdevil from their whatsamacallit. They never prepared plane shift nor wish. Now what? The game ends because they built their characters wrong?

Magic could solve this issue, but they don't have the magic to do so. Now what? They give up? No more campaign?

No, they persevere despite their builds and continue the game. Maybe they never do so and must wait until after the archdevil has completed his plan. They didn't fail because there's no fail state, they just deal with what's after.

 

[Asisreo]

Or, to put it bluntly: A caster in their worst-case situation is at the same level of capability and opportunity as a fighter in their best-case situation.

Until combat starts, where a caster is a useless bag of meat in their worst case scenario and the only worst-case scenario for the fighter is not having at least 1hp.

In combat (ie "fighting") almost all classes have fairly equivalent capabilities. If you're looking for a class with the worst potential opportunities to contribute in combat, its not going to be a high-level caster.

How's a high-level caster going to survive a single encounter against one of D&D's most iconic

enemy, the Beholder?

Casters suck against saving throws, too. Force a save on them, any save, and their only means of defense is either having casted a spell prior to getting hit or their having proficiency in that save. The more common saves being least likely to have high ability scores with exception to the cleric and druid.

Having charm person does make you better than someone that doesn't have it when socializing is involved. It is an additional option that the other person does not have; even if you never have to use it, you had the option of using it.

If you never have to use it, you wasted a spell known/prepared on something so situational and should have prepared something better instead. Not only are you now only as good as the baseline, you've wasted your precious options on something you haven't used. It might as well had never been in your spells known at all.

And it doesn't stop the opposition from refusing your requests. A friendly guard still can't let anyone into the treasure vault without signed documentation.

 

[RangerWickett]

your answer is still magical

No it's not. If it's possible to do in the world, and doesn't require chanting, it's not magic. The laws of physics of the world allow the fighter to hover.

In the real world, I can order a pizza by touching a shiny rock a few times. It might seem like magic if you aren't familiar with cell phones and the internet, but it's not magic.

Ultimately, though, why does this distinction matter? Unless we're going to have antimagic fields be a common thing, and say that ankhegs collapse and suffocate inside one because real-world physics don't let bugs get that big, we're debating fairly unimportant stuff while we could be focusing on what creates an enjoyable and memorable game experience.

 

[billd91]

Without reading responses, a high-level fighter is Cloud, Captain America, or Simon Belmont. He can take hits that others can't take, is more physically mobile than other characters, and hits hard, accurately, and often.

It's notable and relevant that we are not having this discussion for the Barbarian. The Barbarian capstone and speed increases are exactly what you'd want for a higher-level fighter-type. Accuracy, power, durability, mobility.

I do not have a specific answer for how to make this happen without stealing the Barbarian's thunder.

This is, I think, why the fighter can't be considered in a vacuum. He needs to be compared to the other warrior-type character classes like barbarian, ranger, paladin, and even the monk and rogue. What warrior archetypes are best covered by each of those? Which ones need to be covered by the fighter? How do we make each of them distinct enough, even if they do share some similar traits?

 

[Stalker0]

No it's not. If it's possible to do in the world, and doesn't require chanting, it's not magic. The laws of physics of the world allow the fighter to hover.

I may be misunderstanding you here, are you saying for a normal dnd campaign.

1) using Tools (aka magic items), a fighter can hover in midair.

2) A fighter can simply choose to hover in midair when they wish.

If it’s number 1 I agree, a fighter provided magic can do magical things. If it’s Number 2, I do not agree that is normal in most games

 

[RangerWickett]

2. A fighter at high enough level ought to be able to just fly, like Goku, or the characters from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. It's not magic; it's exceptional athleticism, or ki, or something like that.

 

[Stalker0]

. Imagine a scenario where a level 20 team consisting of a Ranger, warlock, Rogue and Paladin must get to the Plane of Fire to prevent an Archdevil from their whatsamacallit. They never prepared plane shift nor wish. Now what? The game ends because they built their characters wrong?

Magic could solve this issue, but they don't have the magic to do so. Now what? They give up? No more campaign?

though I do have some counters, I applaud this example, as it’s a good debate point.

So this is an example of a 5e truism, which recognizes that the dm will (and really must) adjust his plot and encounters to his party for optimal effect.

for example, the example group presented is decently “low magic”. Such a party could be trivially killed by a mage doing a combo of some poison cloud plus wall of force. But we would expect that a good dm would not do that, or would at least give the party a chance to acquire needed resources to beat such a ploy if he intended to use it.

So the point of the example is that a low magic party can play in a high level campaign with a good dm who properly adjusts for his party (Which I think is an expectation of 5e gameplay). I agree!!

I think the wrinkle though is when you do have full casters in the party. Now the dm is freer to throw in those scenarios that require magic. Or if the dm allows for more mundane options...the party will still use the wizard because it is the much faster more efficient option.

so this again brings me back to my original point, full casters tend to “cinematically dominate”. If a wizard is not available, the party will adapt (as you noted). But if they are, a party will heavily rely on them...and the wizard will consume a large amount of “screen time” away from the fighters

 

[Stalker0]

2. A fighter at high enough level ought to be able to just fly, like Goku, or the characters from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. It's not magic; it's exceptional athleticism, or ki, or something like that.

ah I think i understand now! Your not saying that fighters “can” do that in standard 5e, but that they “should” be able to in advanced 5e.

i think that is a reasonable position, it’a just not what I was debating before (I was debating caster vs fighter in the current 5e system)

 

[FrogReaver]

2. A fighter at high enough level ought to be able to just fly, like Goku, or the characters from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. It's not magic; it's exceptional athleticism, or ki, or something like that.

I’m not interested in playing dragonball z the rpg. I’m not interested in playing crouching tiger hidden dragon the rpg.

I want to play Hercules or Achilles or etc. but those characters aren’t impressive next to Superman. They aren’t impressive next to a level 20 d&d wizard.

the heroes I want to play can’t be played in a game with level 20 wizards. Or rather they can but they are clearly inferior.