• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

Again the point is that there are multiple ways to do a high level fighter.
So there should be multiple prestige classes and epic destinies

  • Action Star
    • Bonus damage
    • Bonus uses of Action Surge and Second Wind
  • Demigod
    • Bonuses to STR DEX and CON
    • Can go over 26 STR DEX and CON
    • Extra use of Indomitable
  • Iron Hero
    • gets a magic weapon
    • gets a magic armor
    • gets bonus attunements
    • gets a special mount
  • Mastermind
    • gets bonus Maneuvers and advanced Maneuvers
    • gets Expertise in 2 skills
    • gets bonus in INT WIS or CHA
  • Legendary Lord
    • gets a Stronghold
    • gets followers
    • grants bonuses to nearby allies
    • Hellstorm Rocket Battery are core choice
  • Sword Hero
    • "Fightin' Magic"
    • The majority of these are combat options, and thus I believe do not address the actual problem.
Sounds good until the goblins start at a position to surround the enemy. Or just surprises the party, like goblins are made to do. Wizards can be good with AoE's. Not very good at taking them or resisting most effects in general.
Other than having a couple more HP per level, Fighters aren't much better at resisting effects.
Even a 20th level wizard's greatest defense against a wisdom save is their +11 proficiency (if they went +5 wisdom which doesn't seem likely). And they're looking at saves in the upwards of DC 22-23.
. . . from goblins?!

It's some weird fixation on this imaginary narrative where you must do something the right way or else you've "failed."
This is not the narrative that people have been explaining to you.
Achieving something, right way or not, is a character contributing to the party and the player feeling good. Ideally everyone gets equal opportunities to contribute.
A fighter confronted with most out of combat problems can overcome them with ability checks, ingenuity, sweat, time and possibly money.
A wizard confronted with most out of combat problems can overcome them with ability checks, ingenuity, sweat, time and possibly money as well. But they might also be able to overcome it much easier with their class ability and shine all the more brightly. And if the wizard is able to solve the problem with a spell, the fighter does not get the opportunity to shine with their solution.

The issue is not "The fighter has a bag of basic tools, the wizard has a bag of different tools".
The issue is "The fighter has a bag of basic tools, the wizard also has a bag of basic tools and a van full of more specialised and effective tools."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I think you start by removing some action economy restrictions.

Yup, the old Combat reflex from 3.X that gave extra reaction could be an idea.

Swapping weapons and equipping/unequiping shields as a free action. That’s minor but it would go a long way to making higher level fighters feel better.

Good idea. Readying a thrown weapon a part of an attack or a shield freely would enable build that switch weapons during the fight, like switching from versatile to sword'n board.

since the high level fighter doesn’t get magical means of transportation he should get boosts to mounts.

I had in mind a feature that gives something like +2 AC and Int or Cha + level THP after a rest to any mount or follower under the fighter.

Since the high level fighter doesn’t get magic to enhance his skills and abilities or to do things that only magic can I propose a pool of dice that he can spend on any skill in the fighters class list when he makes a skill check.

I'd like something like the ''psionic dice'' from the Wild Talent UA that grew and shrinked as you used them, something in the same vein as the Stunt Die from DCC.

At higher level, I would also make the fighter a good ''item user'' class. I dont know if you are familiar with this archetype from JRPGs, but its more or less the idea that the character is proficient with the use of ''mundane'' items and gains a bonus when using consumables. If the fighter has a ''special die'' from the above comment, he also can add the die to any roll on a hoard/treasure table. Since the fighter is the most dependent on equipment, he also has an eye to spot the good stuff.
EX:
  • Use a potion as a bonus action.
  • Use alchemist's fire/acid/holy water as a bonus action.
  • Double the duration of potion you drink.
  • Add X to HP regained from potion.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
In the old TSR Fighters (and any martial character or Fighter sub-class as it was called) were FEARED by spellcasters. High Level Fighters even more so.

The first and primary reason is if a fighter hit the caster, the spell was disrupted. No save. It simply ended any chance for that spell to be cast as long as the warrior hit them prior to the spell being cast. This made archers (and multiple chances to hit the wizard) a scary proposition.

The High Level Fighter also had good saves. Their chances to save against any spell were inordinately HIGH compared to any version of the game after 3e. The Fighter was pretty resistant to magic, even if the wizard got the spell off.

And finally, as Fighters ability to hit (or proficiency bonus) went up far more quickly than any other class, a high level fighter's chances to hit a wizard, even a wizard with protection spells, was basically guaranteed.

Today, a High Level Fighter might not hit that wizard. They have multiple attacks (So did Fighters in the old TSR days, but their chances to hit were a LOT higher against a wizard's AC)...strike one against the Fighter. The Fighter doesn't get an inherent bonus to hit that is any better than any one else's ability. Their proficiency bonus is exactly that same (which still boggles my mind. It's like saying that professor in the library who's gone on digs for 5 years is going to have the same proficiency to hit with a chosen weapon as a trained soldier who's been trained to kill for the past 5 years). The Fighter has no inherent bonus over any other class anymore in this area.

Today, the High level fighter does not have good saves in every category. They will be weak in several areas which are easy for a Wizard to target and take the Fighter out.

Today, it's not as easy to simply disrupt a spell. The Wizard may be disturbed, but keep on going.

This is one MAJOR reason why Fighters have gotten a lot weaker against their spellcasting counterparts at high levels in modern D&D.

If one wants an epic Fighter...these are some of the things that probably should be addressed.

yep. having a very strong fighter even against spells would be good. Things that boost his defense against magic and other supernatural attacks would go far. That’s one way I mentioned to bring the fighter up to the wizards level. I don’t know that in an advanced 5e we want to go too far down that path but some options for more defensive abilities especially against magic would be great.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
    • The majority of these are combat options, and thus I believe do not address the actual problem.
Other than having a couple more HP per level, Fighters aren't much better at resisting effects.
. . . from goblins?!

This is not the narrative that people have been explaining to you.
Achieving something, right way or not, is a character contributing to the party and the player feeling good. Ideally everyone gets equal opportunities to contribute.
A fighter confronted with most out of combat problems can overcome them with ability checks, ingenuity, sweat, time and possibly money.
A wizard confronted with most out of combat problems can overcome them with ability checks, ingenuity, sweat, time and possibly money as well. But they might also be able to overcome it much easier with their class ability and shine all the more brightly. And if the wizard is able to solve the problem with a spell, the fighter does not get the opportunity to shine with their solution.

The issue is not "The fighter has a bag of basic tools, the wizard has a bag of different tools".
The issue is "The fighter has a bag of basic tools, the wizard also has a bag of basic tools and a van full of more specialised and effective tools."

Yep. The fighter has some basic tools. A hammer,a shovel, a pick, ascrewdriver, etc.

The wizard has the power tools and possibly power equipment too.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Sounds good until the goblins start at a position to surround the enemy. Or just surprises the party, like goblins are made to do. Wizards can be good with AoE's. Not very good at taking them or resisting most effects in general. Even a 20th level wizard's greatest defense against a wisdom save is their +11 proficiency (if they went +5 wisdom which doesn't seem likely). And they're looking at saves in the upwards of DC 22-23.

And without magic items the fighter has a 21 AC at best versus a +18 to hit, and their highest save is a also a +11, only their's is Con, which is going to half damage anyways most of the time.

Also, the ambushed wizard activates contingency to dimension door away, then begins destroying the goblins from a better positon. Or casts Fire Storm. Or does a Wall of Force/Stone/Fire.

Meanwhile... the fighter now has multiple turns, because they now need to reach each goblins. So, they are still in a worse position to deal with them all quickly.


There's no losing if your character isn't dead. Let them do whatever their goal is, kill them when you get out and clean up the mess.

It's some weird fixation on this imaginary narrative where you must do something the right way or else you've "failed."

This isn't a videogame. You can just do stuff the way your character would do them. Imagine a scenario where a level 20 team consisting of a Ranger, warlock, Rogue and Paladin must get to the Plane of Fire to prevent an Archdevil from their whatsamacallit. They never prepared plane shift nor wish. Now what? The game ends because they built their characters wrong?

Magic could solve this issue, but they don't have the magic to do so. Now what? They give up? No more campaign?

No, they persevere despite their builds and continue the game. Maybe they never do so and must wait until after the archdevil has completed his plan. They didn't fail because there's no fail state, they just deal with what's after.


Yeah, if you fail to prevent the enemy from achieving their goals. You've lost. the Archdevil merged the planes, now the Devils have free reign enter the material world, and you have no way of reaching them to end the ritual. You are fighting a losing war of attrition in a world no overrun with Devils.

Sure, you aren't dead yet, but you will be, and you can't stop them. I guess the campaign can continue in this new ruined world, but most people would roll up new characters. Probably some magic-users so they stand a chance of stopping whatever goes wrong in this new world.

Or, more than likely, the DM gives you a friendly mage to solve that problem, so the plot isn't "and the heroes had no way of stopping the apocalypse, so the world ended in fire and death."


Until combat starts, where a caster is a useless bag of meat in their worst case scenario and the only worst-case scenario for the fighter is not having at least 1hp.

Cantrips are a thing. And quite useful. Also, by 20th level, you have some 1st and 2nd spells at will, so that is a thing too.

Not exactly what I'd call a "useless bag of meat"

How's a high-level caster going to survive a single encounter against one of D&D's most iconic enemy, the Beholder?

Quite well. Most casters I've seen in beholder fights are smart enough to move in and out of the anti-magic zone. They move out, hit the beholder, then move back in so the Beholder can't hit them with their eye rays.

And, since the Beholder only gets to change it's cone at the start of its turn, if it moves the cone to hit the wizard, they have full access to all of their magic

Amusingly, it is generally barbarians and melee fighters who have the hardest time, since the Beholder is usually flying out of reach, and anti-magic prevents them from safely flying up to stab it.

Casters suck against saving throws, too. Force a save on them, any save, and their only means of defense is either having casted a spell prior to getting hit or their having proficiency in that save. The more common saves being least likely to have high ability scores with exception to the cleric and druid.

They are literally no worse at saving throws than anyone else. And since they tend to have proficiency in mental saves, they tend to be better off than fighters and barbarians against some of the worst effects.

So instead, as Frog said, let the wizard be a wizard, and give the fighter meaningful option that makes its varying roles fun to play, instead of bringing the figther to do the things of a wizard. In the end, if the player really wanted a PC that can have the whole versatile array of a spellcaster, they would play a spellcaster, not a fighter.

In short, the breadth of options for the fighter should add to the general idea of a fighter, not make them another class entirely.

How would you do that? I dont know, myself.

I think the only way to really do that is the "fighter's only go to level 10, then they get a more impressive prestige class" route. Because I think most of us agree that the idea of having the classes inherently unbalanced where the wizard is a superior choice in 80% of all circumstances is a problem.


Perhaps flip the problem around. Let's say we have a party of 4 spellcasters. The BBEG is a high level fighter. What could we do to make her terrifying to the party?

I think the biggest necessity would be very high magic resistance. The BBEG would need to be able to shrug off or fight through most non-damage spells, and take minimal damage from damage spells.

Also the BBEG needs some way of stopping spellcasting. Like if she gets in melee combat with the spellcaster, the spellcaster simply shouldn't be able to get a spell off.

Yeah, the first and biggest thing would be to make the BBEG practically immune to magic and able to ignore its effects.

I mean, a simple combo like Heat Metal (5th level), Cloudkill, and Wall of Force (using only three casters of our four casters) can deal 550d8 damage. Even with saving for half, I think that is about 300d8 damage, which is over a thousand damage from succeeding the saves.

Without the ability to ignore magic, the BBEG dies.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
    • The majority of these are combat options, and thus I believe do not address the actual problem.
Other than having a couple more HP per level, Fighters aren't much better at resisting effects.
. . . from goblins?!

This is not the narrative that people have been explaining to you.
Achieving something, right way or not, is a character contributing to the party and the player feeling good. Ideally everyone gets equal opportunities to contribute.
A fighter confronted with most out of combat problems can overcome them with ability checks, ingenuity, sweat, time and possibly money.
A wizard confronted with most out of combat problems can overcome them with ability checks, ingenuity, sweat, time and possibly money as well. But they might also be able to overcome it much easier with their class ability and shine all the more brightly. And if the wizard is able to solve the problem with a spell, the fighter does not get the opportunity to shine with their solution.

The issue is not "The fighter has a bag of basic tools, the wizard has a bag of different tools".
The issue is "The fighter has a bag of basic tools, the wizard also has a bag of basic tools and a van full of more specialised and effective tools."

I just wanted to throw in there, I think fighters and wizards compare evenly at level 5. By level 11 though the wizard is much better.

combat feats help the fighter stay in a good combat Position by further boosting his damage.

outside combat though the fighter has continually fallen behind.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
And without magic items the fighter has a 21 AC at best versus a +18 to hit, and their highest save is a also a +11, only their's is Con, which is going to half damage anyways most of the time.

Also, the ambushed wizard activates contingency to dimension door away, then begins destroying the goblins from a better positon. Or casts Fire Storm. Or does a Wall of Force/Stone/Fire.

Meanwhile... the fighter now has multiple turns, because they now need to reach each goblins. So, they are still in a worse position to deal with them all quickly.





Yeah, if you fail to prevent the enemy from achieving their goals. You've lost. the Archdevil merged the planes, now the Devils have free reign enter the material world, and you have no way of reaching them to end the ritual. You are fighting a losing war of attrition in a world no overrun with Devils.

Sure, you aren't dead yet, but you will be, and you can't stop them. I guess the campaign can continue in this new ruined world, but most people would roll up new characters. Probably some magic-users so they stand a chance of stopping whatever goes wrong in this new world.

Or, more than likely, the DM gives you a friendly mage to solve that problem, so the plot isn't "and the heroes had no way of stopping the apocalypse, so the world ended in fire and death."




Cantrips are a thing. And quite useful. Also, by 20th level, you have some 1st and 2nd spells at will, so that is a thing too.

Not exactly what I'd call a "useless bag of meat"



Quite well. Most casters I've seen in beholder fights are smart enough to move in and out of the anti-magic zone. They move out, hit the beholder, then move back in so the Beholder can't hit them with their eye rays.

And, since the Beholder only gets to change it's cone at the start of its turn, if it moves the cone to hit the wizard, they have full access to all of their magic

Amusingly, it is generally barbarians and melee fighters who have the hardest time, since the Beholder is usually flying out of reach, and anti-magic prevents them from safely flying up to stab it.



They are literally no worse at saving throws than anyone else. And since they tend to have proficiency in mental saves, they tend to be better off than fighters and barbarians against some of the worst effects.



I think the only way to really do that is the "fighter's only go to level 10, then they get a more impressive prestige class" route. Because I think most of us agree that the idea of having the classes inherently unbalanced where the wizard is a superior choice in 80% of all circumstances is a problem.




Yeah, the first and biggest thing would be to make the BBEG practically immune to magic and able to ignore its effects.

I mean, a simple combo like Heat Metal (5th level), Cloudkill, and Wall of Force (using only three casters of our four casters) can deal 550d8 damage. Even with saving for half, I think that is about 300d8 damage, which is over a thousand damage from succeeding the saves.

Without the ability to ignore magic, the BBEG dies.

the problem with level 10 to impressive prestige class is that the prestige class has to be magic at that point or they still don’t compete with wizards. That’s a deal break for a lot of us.

so I say leave fighters inferiority mostly where it is and just make some cool features for them at that power level (maybe slightly higher).

I’d rather have mundane inferior fighters than turn every fighter into a magical one just to keep up.
 

Stalker0

Legend
So let me try a different method. I’m going to list out some things I think are “common” obstacles for high level fighters. I think it’s important that fighters get some tools to help deal with these types of things. Doesn’t necessarily need to be equivalent to what casters can do...but at least so they are not so reliant on magic And casters to deal with these things.

1) High level “barriers”: wall spells, force cage

2) Flying creatures: its important to note that standard fighters don’t have a great dex based ranged attack, so I think a little more than “use a bow” is needed.

3) Harsh Planar conditions: extreme heat and cold, lack of air (or underwater).

4) invisible creatures

5) resist or overcome “conditions”
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Also, the ambushed wizard activates contingency to dimension door away, then begins destroying the goblins from a better positon. Or casts Fire Storm. Or does a Wall of Force/Stone/Fire.
The wizard dimension doored straight into a wall, took force damage, and is still right where he is. Because dimension door doesn't have some "to safety" phrase. You give exact directions that may or may not help.
Yeah, if you fail to prevent the enemy from achieving their goals. You've lost. the Archdevil merged the planes, now the Devils have free reign enter the material world, and you have no way of reaching them to end the ritual. You are fighting a losing war of attrition in a world no overrun with Devils.

Sure, you aren't dead yet, but you will be, and you can't stop them. I guess the campaign can continue in this new ruined world, but most people would roll up new characters.
Now? Once the campaign has just gotten good? Heh, it sounds like an even better story has just emerged. Let's not stop once the ball has started rolling. Let's see how our heroes survive in this devil infested world and how they plan on getting it back. The gods can't be happy that this happened, perhaps we can go to the shrine to pray to them. Or maybe we can find a fiend who doesn't particularly like this leadership. I've started campaigns with similar scenarios, almost to a tee. I can't imagine it being a game I wouldn't like to play.
Cantrips are a thing. And quite useful. Also, by 20th level, you have some 1st and 2nd spells at will, so that is a thing too.
Useless bags of meat. Cantrips can hardly keep up with melee damage dealers, even with invocations. They're also perfect punching bags and pin cushions for the enemy since they know the spellcaster is down, no more resurrections or annoying spells.

No, actually, you won't have 1st and 2nd level spells at-will at level 20. Where did you get the notion that a bard ever gets at-will higher level spells? Surely, you're using the entire collective abilities of spellcasters against the argument of a single fighter? Because that would hardly be fair.

QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8063454, member: 6801228"]
Quite well. Most casters I've seen in beholder fights are smart enough to move in and out of the anti-magic zone. They move out, hit the beholder, then move back in so the Beholder can't hit them with their eye rays.

And, since the Beholder only gets to change it's cone at the start of its turn, if it moves the cone to hit the wizard, they have full access to all of their magic

Amusingly, it is generally barbarians and melee fighters who have the hardest time, since the Beholder is usually flying out of reach, and anti-magic prevents them from safely flying up to stab it.
[/QUOTE]
That'd be pretty clutch if the beholder was dumb, but beholders are not dumb. They'll be in the air pointing their antimagic cone downwards to have a 150ft diameter circle on the ground centered on the spellcaster. That way, no cover nor movement could have you escape the cone.
They are literally no worse at saving throws than anyone else. And since they tend to have proficiency in mental saves, they tend to be better off than fighters and barbarians against some of the worst effects.
Fighters get indomitable and additional ASI's, as well as the option to grab resilient as a feat after their primary ability scores. Barbarians have danger sense and their primary saving throws go up to +13 each. Monks have Diamond Soul and can reroll failed saves as well as evasion. Rogues have evasion and slippery mind as well as an additional ASI/feat. In terms of saving throws, martials basically have a monopoly on features useful against them.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
the problem with level 10 to impressive prestige class is that the prestige class has to be magic at that point or they still don’t compete with wizards. That’s a deal break for a lot of us.

so I say leave fighters inferiority mostly where it is and just make some cool features for them at that power level (maybe slightly higher).

I’d rather have mundane inferior fighters than turn every fighter into a magical one just to keep up.
I think we need to realize that characters above 10th level are not mundane, no matter what class they are. If you want to stick to a nonmagical fighter, stop the game after level 10. The vast majority of D&D games do that anyway.
 

Remove ads

Top