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Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
2. Most of the good suggestions to make high level fighters better result in diminishing other classes (e.g. granting expertise).
I disagree that this is at all bad.
I think philosophically all non-casters should excel in skills if a caster is being dependent on spells for non combat capability and well that is what is mentioned usually when we talk about out of combat ability being better by casters they are no longer really dependent on skill, ie why would he in theory develop the skill?. A fighter could have auto proficiency in Athletics or even Expertise a wizard might require Arcana diminishing choice. And yes a rogue might do the same with Stealth (like the fighter not the Wizard).
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Which again leads to the issue with Fighters--too much given to other classes.
nods take it back is perhaps a bit bold LOL

But one can have class overlap for designing a character concept

In 4e I might build a berserkerish fighter as Battlerager Fighter a Blackguard Paladin a Barbarian or even by reflavoring some racial types like Shifters.

(and in 5e some is there too)
 
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Stalker0

Legend
I’ll reshout out the previous idea for flexible feats for the fighter, which offers him at least some solid flexibility in the face of magic. Also allows for some niche nigh level feats to be made to add to his list of abilities as needed.

So if we look at our modern Marvel culture, Hawkeye is a high level fighter. I don’t think he’s 20th level, but he’s technically with his “party” dealing with world and even universe ending threats...so he’s dealing with the stakes expected of a high level fighter.

Hes considered “mundane”, but realistically does have a power...he never ever misses. That’s a pretty darn useful combat ability, so how about.

Sure Strike

When a 10th level fighter swings his sword or knocks an arrow, it carries the assuredness of death.

once per round, the fighter may declare a missed attack a hit.

At 20th level, the fighter has left behind the frailties of lesser warriors. He may apply this ability to all attacks.


it’s still mundane, technically something an extraordinary amount of die luck could replicate...but my god is that it cool and powerful
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
So, what do I expect Fighters at high levels to excel at? FIGHTING. Throw in commanding, tactics, and such. Think of Achilles with his Myrmidons warriors. By tier 3 and definitely into tier 4, perhaps heroic feats (but many such things fit better with barbarians or other classes). Which again leads to the issue
I don't necessarily think miniomancy is the solution.

But I like the tactics angle. You know what I think would be cool? If the fighter got a DC check equal to maybe the creature's intelligence score or maybe just a contest. On a success, the player gets some form of information about the target's next move. Maybe their next action or next position. They can then use that information to adjust.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This is why I was considering the Heroic Surge option granting the ability to do more on a skill check. Not just "get a higher number", but more getting a more powerful effect. Like being able to carry several companions when jumping/climbing/swimming on an athletics check. Or an insight check revealing what someone's first action would be if combat started.
Is there UA for the fighter doing something ike that with CS dice? I would like using HD as a CS die to that mix (there is a heroic surge)
 

Amhain

Explorer
But, to be fair to the point (which was get rid of fighters because rogues, paladins, rangers and barbarians cover all the bases) Rogues, Paladins, Rangers and Bararians also can't compete with those spells in any meaningful way.

I mean, off the battlefield the most impressive thing a Paladin can do is summon a flying horse and raise the dead. Two things that the casters have been able to do for nearly 10 levels.

And both things more impressive than what a rogue or Barbarian can accomplish.

This is a valid observation, they're nowhere near as impressive as magic. But at least they have things they do out of combat. They either fight and do this other thing (Paladins, Rangers in theory), or do the other thing and are handy in a fight (Rogues).

Barbarians and Fighters may as well be the rest of the party's collective animal companion for all they get to do outside of combat from a mechanical perspective other than their Skills. And they have nothing to enhance those, from a mechanical perspective, because only Rogues and Bards get expertise.

Why can a full caster get Expertise, but none of the other Martials can be allowed to have that sweet, sweet double proficiency?
 

I actually agree with you. I think there's could be something there that could be wortwhile addition, but I have absolutely no idea what.

The old Feat for Skills UA had some things like this, where you could use your skills to generate mechanical effects. Maybe it could be one way of doing while giving an edge to the mundanes, since fighters and rogue are generally a little more SAD and have more feat.
I'm thinking that at high levels, the martial classes might get a bunch of slots to pick from a list of feat-like abilities to customise/represent prestige class-like progression. Fighter has a different list to Rogue to pick from, but some abilities are on both lists.

I don't necessarily think miniomancy is the solution.

But I like the tactics angle. You know what I think would be cool? If the fighter got a DC check equal to maybe the creature's intelligence score or maybe just a contest. On a success, the player gets some form of information about the target's next move. Maybe their next action or next position. They can then use that information to adjust.
Yep. I mentioned something like this as a non-combat ability that would reveal the capabilities and disposition of a creature by telling the fighter what its first action would be if combat should break out. Allowing it to be used in combat to reveal the creature's intended next action would be a possibility.
Is there UA for the fighter doing something ike that with CS dice? I would like using HD as a CS die to that mix (there is a heroic surge)
That just adds a superiority die to the result of the skill check. I'm suggesting the heroic surge dramatically improve what a skill check can achieve.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
Barbarians

Well, at least barbarians have the whole advantage on STR checks while raging and some archetypes have out-of-combat rituals or features (the totemist one at least).

I think one good thing A5E could do is remove the ''Must attack'' part of keeping rage active and include instead a list of actions that can maintain rage (attacking, making a STR check, getting hit, make a Wis save etc) so that rage can be use out-of-combat a little. A

And at higher level you could add extra rider to the rage feature to include a jump bonus, or a climb speed or even the ''siege weapon'' tag on attack rolls.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
That just adds a superiority die to the result of the skill check. I'm suggesting the heroic surge dramatically improve what a skill check can achieve.
In context with someone saying if normal skills allowed a bigger result for better rolls though if the better roll was not bound by a crit but were a reflection of high numbers then maybe. And what if that surge gave you advantage on the check (more crit chance that way too)

Explicitly better results available on skill and accessible via such does sound spot on.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Too much of what a generic class ("Fighter") could do has been doled out to other classes.

Actually I think it's the opposite.

I think the D&D community is kind of narrow-minded and can only think of or agree on togive a fighter. So we end up with the same ideas over and over and trying to get fighter's other classes' feature instead of creatiing new ones. Because creating new features put the duty of accepting the consequences on us.

I don't know why mythic fighters can't replace some ability checks or saving throws with attack rolls or AC.
I don't know why you can say "My fighter is a demigod or god's chosen" so he gets an epic boon (from a list) at level 7 and 15.
I don't know why anime fighters can't get flash steps and air slashes.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I don't know why mythic fighters can't replace some ability checks or saving throws with attack rolls or AC.
I don't know why you can say "My fighter is a demigod or god's chosen" so he gets an epic boon (from a list) at level 7 and 15.
I don't know why anime fighters can't get flash steps and air slashes.
That is the issue, IMO, is there is no reason why you can't have these things, but for myself I would not have any interest in them. So, I am not going to take the time to develop them (unless I got paid LOL!).

But IME such issues are polar. A lot of people want mystic or magical fighters, others want only mundane but heroic ones. Two camps who could work together to help develop what the others want, and help ensure both results are balanced against each other, but most of us have too much going on to do that (at least right now).
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Actually I think it's the opposite.

I think the D&D community is kind of narrow-minded and can only think of or agree on togive a fighter. So we end up with the same ideas over and over and trying to get fighter's other classes' feature instead of creatiing new ones. Because creating new features put the duty of accepting the consequences on us.

I don't know why mythic fighters can't replace some ability checks or saving throws with attack rolls or AC.
I don't know why you can say "My fighter is a demigod or god's chosen" so he gets an epic boon (from a list) at level 7 and 15.
I don't know why anime fighters can't get flash steps and air slashes.

1. Presumably every character should be able to get a blessing

2. Flash steps and air slashes are magic.

the basic problem boils down to innate vs non-innate abilities. The community doesn’t seem keen on accepting non-innate abilities for fighters. Never mind clerics have them. Never mind druids do as well. Warlocks too. You don’t hear those arguments against the anyone can do it narrative control those classes provide.

Just because a warlock exists doesn’t mean no one else can make deals with devils. Just because a cleric exists doesn’t mean being a cleric is the only way to achieve divine power of the gods. Etc.

I think the argument against non-innate fighter abilities falls apart due to these examples. I’m on board.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
That is the issue, IMO, is there is no reason why you can't have these things, but for myself I would not have any interest in them. So, I am not going to take the time to develop them (unless I got paid LOL!).

But IME such issues are polar. A lot of people want mystic or magical fighters, others want only mundane but heroic ones. Two camps who could work together to help develop what the others want, and help ensure both results are balanced against each other, but most of us have too much going on to do that (at least right now).

well that and I don’t really think it’s possible to balance a heroic fighter with magical ones. At least not out of combat.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That is the issue, IMO, is there is no reason why you can't have these things, but for myself I would not have any interest in them. So, I am not going to take the time to develop them (unless I got paid LOL!).

But IME such issues are polar. A lot of people want mystic or magical fighters, others want only mundane but heroic ones. Two camps who could work together to help develop what the others want, and help ensure both results are balanced against each other, but most of us have too much going on to do that (at least right now).

On post 23, I listed TEN different versions of a high level fighter. Out of the 10, at least 1 should fit what every D&D sees as a high level fighter.

The issue is many people don't what to choose. For one reason or another they won't say. So we are held up at step 1.

1. Presumably every character should be able to get a blessing

2. Flash steps and air slashes are magic.

the basic problem boils down to innate vs non-innate abilities. The community doesn’t seem keen on accepting non-innate abilities for fighters. Never mind clerics have them. Never mind druids do as well. Warlocks too. You don’t hear those arguments against the anyone can do it narrative control those classes provide.

Just because a warlock exists doesn’t mean no one else can make deals with devils. Just because a cleric exists doesn’t mean being a cleric is the only way to achieve divine power of the gods. Etc.

I think the argument against non-innate fighter abilities falls apart due to these examples. I’m on board.

Those 3 are 3 different archetypes. 3 out of 10 that I described.

The problem is the community is too busy arguing about what they don't want, they won't develop the ideas enough to be options.

"What kind of high level fighter do you want?"
"I don't want X"
"No on no. I'm asking what do you want? What do you want the high level fighter to do?"
"No X and No Y"
"No, I said..."
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
On post 23, I listed TEN different versions of a high level fighter. Out of the 10, at least 1 should fit what every D&D sees as a high level fighter.

The issue is many people don't what to choose. For one reason or another they won't say. So we are held up at step 1.



Those 3 are 3 different archetypes. 3 out of 10 that I described.

The problem is the community is too busy arguing about what they don't want, they won't develop the ideas enough to be options.

"What kind of high level fighter do you want?"
"I don't want X"
"No on no. I'm asking what do you want? What do you want the high level fighter to do?"
"No X and No Y"
"No, I said..."

Why are you replying to me like I’m against anything you’ve said?

i think it was a great springboard to discuss fighter possibilities. I don’t think all those fighters are possible though - at least not in d&d. The discussion has to go beyond “wants” at some point to what is realistically possible to achieve in design with the constraints we are given. That’s what I and many others have been discussing.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Why are you replying to me like I’m against anything you’ve said?

i think it was a great springboard to discuss fighter possibilities. I don’t think all those fighters are possible though - at least not in d&d. The discussion has to go beyond “wants” at some point to what is realistically possible to achieve in design with the constraints we are given. That’s what I and many others have been discussing.

I am not as pessimistic on the size of the design constraints. It's just thatthe community has to be dragged kicking and screaming on deciding which ones get in and how they look.

The possibilities are more or less known. The issue is that everything gets turned down. No spells. No flashy superhuman abilities. No blatant supernatural abilities. No stronghold. No followers. No gifts or boons. No guaranteed magic items. No expertise. No movie physics. No comic book physics. No anime physics.

If Morrus does a survey for fighter stuff, it's gonna be all over the place.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
On post 23, I listed TEN different versions of a high level fighter. Out of the 10, at least 1 should fit what every D&D sees as a high level fighter.

The issue is many people don't what to choose. For one reason or another they won't say. So we are held up at step 1.
Yep, I remember your list. None of those are what a high level fighter should be IMO. A couple are close, but most are "mysticy" versions I have no interest in, personally. Even the ones that are close, are generally over the top. But, that is because I don't like demigod or superhero games for D&D. If I wanted such things, I would put them in levels 21-30.

If Morrus does a survey for fighter stuff, it's gonna be all over the place.
Completely agree. Which is why I said before it is very much a polar issue. :(
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I am not as pessimistic on the size of the design constraints. It's just thatthe community has to be dragged kicking and screaming on deciding which ones get in and how they look.

The possibilities are more or less known. The issue is that everything gets turned down. No spells. No flashy superhuman abilities. No blatant supernatural abilities. No stronghold. No followers. No gifts or boons. No guaranteed magic items. No expertise. No movie physics. No comic book physics. No anime physics.

If Morrus does a survey for fighter stuff, it's gonna be all over the place.

but my post offered a counter argument to the reasons against having. Many of those elements.

after all no one says the warlock is off limits because all characters should be able to make deals with powerful entities.

IMO the community is fine with such Classes, they just don’t realize it yet.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So I propose this: when designing high level fighter abilities their power source should typically be external to the fighter.

whether that’s a blessing of a god or having an empire of loyal servants or being a demigod or having tons of magical items to augment their fighting, etc the power source for most of a fighters high level abilities should be external to himself. I think that solves all potential issues with conceptualization.
 

Yep, I remember your list. None of those are what a high level fighter should be IMO. A couple are close, but most are "mysticy" versions I have no interest in, personally. Even the ones that are close, are generally over the top. But, that is because I don't like demigod or superhero games for D&D. If I wanted such things, I would put them in levels 21-30.


Completely agree. Which is why I said before it is very much a polar issue. :(
If WotC is anything to go by, polarizing issues tend not to be addressed at all in published form, given how it's impossible to get a majority behind any one idea. I very much hope it doesn't go that way here.
 

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