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Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

Yep, I remember your list. None of those are what a high level fighter should be IMO. A couple are close, but most are "mysticy" versions I have no interest in, personally. Even the ones that are close, are generally over the top. But, that is because I don't like demigod or superhero games for D&D. If I wanted such things, I would put them in levels 21-30.

The thing is, most people seem to be in agreement that DnD characters are "supernatural" by level 11 or 12

I'm basing this off of the halfing and gnome discussions, but everyone seemed to say they were fine with the strength 20 halfling by that level.

So, saying that the "mystical" fighters shouldn't come online until after level 20, seems to be against the general feel that everything is more magical by level 11
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The thing is, most people seem to be in agreement that DnD characters are "supernatural" by level 11 or 12

I'm basing this off of the halfing and gnome discussions, but everyone seemed to say they were fine with the strength 20 halfling by that level.

So, saying that the "mystical" fighters shouldn't come online until after level 20, seems to be against the general feel that everything is more magical by level 11

there’s a vast difference in being slightly above natural levels and being all out magical. You can describe slightly above natural as magical but it’s two different levels we are talking about.
 

there’s a vast difference in being slightly above natural levels and being all out magical. You can describe slightly above natural as magical but it’s two different levels we are talking about.
Forgive me if you've explained this, but what do you think high level fighters should be able to do? I personally can't think of anything hovering around human limits that a 10th level fighter couldn't accomplish.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
So I propose this: when designing high level fighter abilities their power source should typically be external to the fighter.

whether that’s a blessing of a god or having an empire of loyal servants or being a demigod or having tons of magical items to augment their fighting, etc the power source for most of a fighters high level abilities should be external to himself. I think that solves all potential issues with conceptualization.

I kinda agree.

But, are those power source built in the class progression?

For example: the artificer is quite dependent on magic items, but the class gave him access to them without asking the DM to hand them over, at least partially.

If a fighter gains power from the outside, should it be written as a class feature (Ex: At level 11, you gain your choice of one magic weapon or armor of your choice) or still be in the hand of the DM at the meta-level of the game (DM's are encouraged to give X magic items to the fighter by level Y)?

I once played around with the idea of fighter infusing their equipment with their heroic destiny, picking lesser/greater artifact effects from the DMG to add to their weapon/armor as they gained level. A little like Aragorn's Andùril or Arthur's Excalibur, empowered by and empowering their wielder by their shared destiny/history.

The weaponmaster fighter from AiME has a list of power-up to add to its weapon to make it legendary (calling its name X/day to frighten enemies, + x damage against enemy type, advantage to social with X culture/race etc)
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Yep, I remember your list. None of those are what a high level fighter should be IMO. A couple are close, but most are "mysticy" versions I have no interest in, personally. Even the ones that are close, are generally over the top. But, that is because I don't like demigod or superhero games for D&D. If I wanted such things, I would put them in levels 21-30.

I offered versions like the Fighter-Lord and the Mastermind who are barely past the mundane. And those were turned down.
but my post offered a counter argument to the reasons against having. Many of those elements.

after all no one says the warlock is off limits because all characters should be able to make deals with powerful entities.

IMO the community is fine with such Classes, they just don’t realize it yet.

But people here have said stronghold, magic swords, and bons are of limits because wizards could get them.
And when I responded that perhaps fighters progress at them better because magic spells are hard, that wasn't accepted either.
 

6ENow!

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
The thing is, most people seem to be in agreement that DnD characters are "supernatural" by level 11 or 12

I'm basing this off of the halfing and gnome discussions, but everyone seemed to say they were fine with the strength 20 halfling by that level.

So, saying that the "mystical" fighters shouldn't come online until after level 20, seems to be against the general feel that everything is more magical by level 11
You could well be correct. But, in that light I also feel the move from 1 to 10 is too quick often IME. My preference of play is in the lower levels, capping around 12th maybe? That is why I developed both a L10 and L12 variant. It tamed down spellcasters who still got "high magic" but not as much, and allowed the full (or close to it) progression of class features otherwise. It kept HP generally lower over all with a cap at 12th, making many monsters viable threats at those levels (which by level 17-20 would be push overs until you used a dozen, which made little sense...).

My general progression for ability scores matches proficiency as closely as possible, so you won't likely see a 20 on my characters unless my proficiency is +5 or better. That is slower than the halfling and gnomes strongmen, but IMO allows the game to be more challenging without having to use more powerful monsters or tons of them.

I would be fine if the uber-fighters didn't really roll out until tier 4 maybe. I, for one, like WotC's base design of local hero, regional hero, continental (?) hero, and world hero for tiers 1-4 respectively.
 

6ENow!

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I offered versions like the Fighter-Lord and the Mastermind who are barely past the mundane. And those were turned down.
Well, I can't speak for others who "turned down" some of your options, but the Fighter-Lord is probably the one I would most support. The Demigod and Reaper I could also see some promise in depending on the game, etc.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I offered versions like the Fighter-Lord and the Mastermind who are barely past the mundane. And those were turned down.


But people here have said stronghold, magic swords, and bons are of limits because wizards could get them.
And when I responded that perhaps fighters progress at them better because magic spells are hard, that wasn't accepted either.

it is accepted though. Look at the warlock. Not one complaint despite the warlock being premised on something anyone could do.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
it is accepted though. Look at the warlock. Not one complaint despite the warlock being premised on something anyone could do.

But that's the warlock.

There's a whole battle on how the fighter should look after level 12. Lots of complaining. Very few examples of what is wanted.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I kinda agree.

But, are those power source built in the class progression?

For example: the artificer is quite dependent on magic items, but the class gave him access to them without asking the DM to hand them over, at least partially.

If a fighter gains power from the outside, should it be written as a class feature (Ex: At level 11, you gain your choice of one magic weapon or armor of your choice) or still be in the hand of the DM at the meta-level of the game (DM's are encouraged to give X magic items to the fighter by level Y)?

I once played around with the idea of fighter infusing their equipment with their heroic destiny, picking lesser/greater artifact effects from the DMG to add to their weapon/armor as they gained level. A little like Aragorn's Andùril or Arthur's Excalibur, empowered by and empowering their wielder by their shared destiny/history.

The weaponmaster fighter from AiME has a list of power-up to add to its weapon to make it legendary (calling its name X/day to frighten enemies, + x damage against enemy type, advantage to social with X culture/race etc)

yes. Powers have to be built into class progression. they can be a choice though like lacy boons.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
But that's the warlock.

There's a whole battle on how the fighter should look after level 12. Lots of complaining. Very few examples of what is wanted.

yes it’s the warlock and it’s based on the same premise and has no complaints. Thus the basis that other characters can do something means the fighter can’t have that as a class feature is dead on arrival. That won’t hold back design because it’s not a legitimate argument.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
yes it’s the warlock and it’s based on the same premise and has no complaints. Thus the basis that other characters can do something is dead on arrival. That won’t hold back design because it’s not a legitimate argument.

Warlock's outight magical. The community is fine with altering those.

People here aren't willing to give fighters a squire or a fort.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Warlock's outight magical. The community is fine with altering those.

People here aren't willing to give fighters a squire or a fort.

I say they don’t have any reason to be against the fighter getting such things. Their explanation fails as demonstrated by the warlock and their non issues with it.
 



Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
sure it is. It just takes time to chip away at the illogical. It’s not an instantaneous defense but it will win out in the long run.

I don't know if this project is waiting 5 years. :LOL:

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I think the best course of action is to create 5 subclasses for the fighter. They would range from the mundane to downright overt supernatural.

My choices would be

  1. The Fighter-Lord
    • Type: Mundane
    • Features: Apprentice, Choice of Magical Ally, Bonus Charisma
  2. The Mastermind Fighter
    • Type: Mundane
    • Features: Maneuvers, Bonus skills and Expertise, "Just as Planned"
  3. The Action Hero
    • Type: Slightly Superhuman
    • Features: More Action Surge. 2 Action Surge in a turn, Movie logic
  4. The Mythic Fighter
    • Type: Superhuman
    • Features: Maneuvers, d20 superiority dice. Ability scores over 20.
  5. The Chosen One (Anime Fighter)
    • Type: Practically magic
    • Features: Flash Step, Afterimages, Cutting spells in half, Theme Music
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
to me 20th level is meant to be a bit crazy sauce. At that point, I would expect a Hercules that is now more god than man, more than just a “strong fighter” but a “divine avatar”.
Hercules raising the dead by getting drunk and wrestling death up to three days after the death yes.
 

Asisreo

Archdevil's Advocate
The possibilities are more or less known. The issue is that everything gets turned down. No spells. No flashy superhuman abilities. No blatant supernatural abilities. No stronghold. No followers. No gifts or boons. No guaranteed magic items. No expertise. No movie physics. No comic book physics. No anime physics.
This is where we have to be clear: No design will ever make everyone and their myriad opinions happy.

The designers have a clear idea of how they want "martials" to act and how they want "casters" to act. Casters have more options to be used to bypass the skill system, but they give up their combat ability. Martials have more combat prowess, reliable until HP 0 at all levels, but uses the skill system just as any other class.

Some disagree because everyone should have the same opportunities but Wotc aren't filthy commies, uh, I mean...the point is that if you want less options and decisions, choose a martial. If you want more decisions and options, choose a spellcaster. Want something in the middle? Choose the half or third casters.

They've already given us a fighter with the ability to have substantial options both in-and-out of combat and we've placed this arbitrary rule that it can't have spellcasting, even though the only reason we say that is because it doesn't feel right, yet there's no logical reason why someone would feel such a way. We don't have a problem with magic from a fullcaster's perspective.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You mean the DM had made a scenario where Hercules got to fight death and the DM got tired of running the grapple-only combat so he gave Hercules the victory?
Arranging for an NPC with a mortal illness was certainly the DM scenario. Hercules had divine heritage nobody else was seeing the incarnation of death. If he was someplace else people would have called him a shaman interacting with spirits. (Or he got soused out of his mind and that was a requirement for him to tap into that part of his heritage). Did he actively hang out because it required he be there for when the soul would leave the body?

This one might point out the Mythic characters might see invisibles and be better able to damage incorporeal entities I think
 

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