Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Minigiant]

The majority of these are combat options, and thus I believe do not address the actual problem.

Well it is for the fighter class. However many of these features would have noncombat applications. The Demigod woud have incredible exploration ability whereas the Legendary Lord and the Mastermind would shine in social settings.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Agreed. I dont even believe that a fighter can be brought to the same versatility as a spellcaster. Do we really believe that having the power to jump super high and whatnot is really what's missing from the fighter, anyway? And if you give charm/super move/auto-kill options to the fighter, can it still be considered a ''fighter''? I dont have the answer to those question, and I dont think its possible to find an answer that will satisfy a valid majority.

So instead, as Frog said, let the wizard be a wizard, and give the fighter meaningful option that makes its varying roles fun to play, instead of bringing the figther to do the things of a wizard. In the end, if the player really wanted a PC that can have the whole versatile array of a spellcaster, they would play a spellcaster, not a fighter.

In short, the breadth of options for the fighter should add to the general idea of a fighter, not make them another class entirely.

How would you do that? I dont know, myself.

OK practical suggestion time:
Assumptions:
1) The fighter will have options to choose from as they level up. These will be picked from three pools: Combat, Non-combat, and Both. Each choice will be required to be from a set pool: You cannot pick a Combat option at the level where you get a non-combat option etc. (I feel that this is necessary so that players won't feel required to pick all combat boosts for their options.)
2) The fighter will have the option of spending a resource for the more amazing effects. The actual resource isn't important: Could be action surges, 2nd winds, Superiority dice. This is here for those abilities that people feel require a cost rather than just be freely usable. I'll just call them heroic surges for the moment.
3) Power levels are going to be all over the place. Don't worry about it for the moment. This is just for concepts - maths for balance can come later.

So - Suggestions: (Please feel free to add to these with your own.)

Both combat and non-combat effects:

Mentor: Attract a couple of low-level adventurer henchmen to apprentice to you.

Gain a small unit of basic troops.

Shear or smash through physical objects with your weapon. Harder objects (stone doors/walls and up perhaps) require a Heroic Surge.

Gain an accurate idea of a creature's combat capability: preferred weapon or type of attack, attack bonus, and current hit points.

When taking a short rest, you may instead gain the benefits of a Long rest. You must take three long rests before you can use this ability again.


Non-combat (mostly) effects:

Good sport: When engaging in a physical contest, whether race, friendly spar, or drinking contest, you leave such a good impression that you have advantage on social ability checks on the people you competed against, even if you lost.

Fight insight: When examining the scene of a fight, (whether Investigation, Survival or Perception) you can establish not only the presence of combatants, but actually reenact the entire fight, gaining clues about the capabilities and combatants involved. If attacked by a ranged or melee effect from an unseen opponent, you can establish their location (5ft square).

Item improvisation: You carry such a variety of heavy, pointy or metal implements around that you are treated as having access to any thieves or artisan toolkit. You can kludge together a rough (no sell value) version of almost any mundane item that will last just as long as you need it to. Larger or complex items may require a minute or two and a tool-based ability check.

The Long March: You require twice as many levels of exhaustion to advance to the next level of effect. You can spend a heroic surge, without requiring an action, to ignore all current levels of exhaustion you are suffering from until the beginning of your next turn. You have advantage on any check that involves prolonged exertion, holding breath, or staying awake.

ATF: You have a climb and swim speed equal to your walking speed. Your speed is not reduced by difficult terrain.

 

[RangerWickett]

Perhaps flip the problem around. Let's say we have a party of 4 spellcasters. The BBEG is a high level fighter. What could we do to make her terrifying to the party?

I think the biggest necessity would be very high magic resistance. The BBEG would need to be able to shrug off or fight through most non-damage spells, and take minimal damage from damage spells.

Also the BBEG needs some way of stopping spellcasting. Like if she gets in melee combat with the spellcaster, the spellcaster simply shouldn't be able to get a spell off.

The villain has a suite of aegises and flourishes. An aegis lets them defend against an incoming attack and gain an advantage, and a flourish lets them add some extra cool effect to an attack they're making. Basically they allow a character to do more at higher levels without actually increasing the number of actions or attacks they get.

The 20th level BBEG fighter has, like, 10 Poise. (I borrowed the term from Dark Souls.) He expends 1 Poise each time he uses an aegis or flourish, and regains 1 Poise every turn. He can have 4 aegises and 4 flourishes prepared at a time, and can't use more than two on any given turn. (He can thus flourish twice on his turn, and if you attack him he might use two aegises to defend against two different attacks, or he might use the Impossible Riposte aegis (see below) and then use a flourish when he counterattacks you.

The narrative explanation is that the fighter knows all sorts of tricks, but he can only be primed to use a few of them at a time. He starts combat with a confident understanding of the situation, but pulling off these moves gradually drains him of his focus.

TL;DR - the fighter has spell slots, but they're flavored to match a fighting style.

High-Level Aegises
Whenever you use an aegis, an incoming attack has disadvantage (or you get advantage to save against it). If the attack already had disadvantage against you (or if you were making a save and already had advantage), the attack simply doesn't affect you.

Impossible Riposte - You retaliate to attacks with exceptional swiftness. When someone makes a ranged attack against you or when you have to make a Strength or Dexterity save, you can dash up to one hundred feet toward the attacker and makes an attack against your attacker.

Battlemind - Your awareness of your own mind is so refined that you can turn a mental attack against your foe, like throwing an unbalanced grappler. When you have to make an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma save, the attacker is also affected and must make their own save. If the attacker is immune to the effect of their attack, they instead must make a save against the same DC or else be stunned until the end of your next turn.

I Can Do This All Day - Your body is only strengthened by adversity. When you have to make a Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution save, you may stand up, and can spend any number of hit dice to heal. If you have no hit dice, you heal one quarter your maximum hit points.

Misleading Footwork - Your maneuvers draw an enemy into a bad position. When someone within 30 feet would attack you or have you make a saving throw, first you move them up to fifteen feet closer to you, and then you move adjacent to them. Then you can make an attack against them. Then continue with your foe's original attack.

High-Level Flourishes
Eye of the Storm - Calm amidst the chaos of battle, when you make an attack you gain truesight 800 ft. until the end of your next turn, and you can ignore cover, concealment, and anything that is interfering with your senses or your ability to choose your actions, including illusions and charms. Then for your attack make either a melee attack against each creature within 20 feet of you, or make a special ranged attack: trace a path up to 800 feet long, which can turn any direction, and make one attack with your weapon against each creature whose space that path passes through. If you trace a path back to yourself, you can catch your weapon.

The Art of Butchery - When you hit with an attack, you deal a brutal wound. Choose a limb, mouth, or eye. If limb, the chosen limb drops anything its holding and cannot be used at all, such as to attack; if a leg, the creature falls prone and thereafter its speed is reduced by half. If mouth, the target cannot speak or use the mouth at all, such as to attack. If eye, the target is blinded. Whatever you choose, the target takes 20 damage at the end of each of its turns from bleeding or some other form of gradual degradation (such as by disrupting the energy flow of an elemental). This ongoing damage and the associated wound can be healed by a spending an action and succeeding a DC 20 Wisdom (Medicine) check, or by any effect that heals at least 20 damage. However, if the attack reduces the target to 0 HP, the wound is permanent until the target receives a regeneration spell.

To the Last, I Grapple With Thee - When you make an attack, you also make a Grab attempt with advantage, with no size restrictions. If you succeed, until the end of your next turn, the creature cannot free itself from your grab and forced movement can't move you away from your target. If the creature moves, you can choose to move with it, no matter the movement move - even flying, swimming, burrowing, teleporting, or traveling to another plane. As long as you maintain the grab, you have advantage on attacks against the creature and can ignore its resistances, you have advantage on saves against its attacks, and it has disadvantage to attack you. If the target is no larger than one size category bigger than you, your movement speed is not reduced while grabbing it. If the target you have grabbed moves to a different plane, you can use half your movement to drag both of you back to the previous plane.

Supremacy of the Real - When you attack an object or creature that was created or summoned by magic in the past five minutes, if you hit it, you destroy it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think we need to realize that characters above 10th level are not mundane, no matter what class they are. If you want to stick to a nonmagical fighter, stop the game after level 10. The vast majority of D&D games do that anyway.

noted and rejected.

 

[FrogReaver]

The villain has a suite of aegises and flourishes. An aegis lets them defend against an incoming attack and gain an advantage, and a flourish lets them add some extra cool effect to an attack they're making. Basically they allow a character to do more at higher levels without actually increasing the number of actions or attacks they get.

The 20th level BBEG fighter has, like, 10 Poise. (I borrowed the term from Dark Souls.) He expends 1 Poise each time he uses an aegis or flourish, and regains 1 Poise every turn. He can have 4 aegises and 4 flourishes prepared at a time, and can't use more than two on any given turn. (He can thus flourish twice on his turn, and if you attack him he might use two aegises to defend against two different attacks, or he might use the Impossible Riposte aegis (see below) and then use a flourish when he counterattacks you.

The narrative explanation is that the fighter knows all sorts of tricks, but he can only be primed to use a few of them at a time. He starts combat with a confident understanding of the situation, but pulling off these moves gradually drains him of his focus.

TL;DR - the fighter has spell slots, but they're flavored to match a fighting style.

High-Level Aegises
Whenever you use an aegis, an incoming attack has disadvantage (or you get advantage to save against it). If the attack already had disadvantage against you (or if you were making a save and already had advantage), the attack simply doesn't affect you.

Impossible Riposte - You retaliate to attacks with exceptional swiftness. When someone makes a ranged attack against you or when you have to make a Strength or Dexterity save, you can dash up to one hundred feet toward the attacker and makes an attack against your attacker.

Battlemind - Your awareness of your own mind is so refined that you can turn a mental attack against your foe, like throwing an unbalanced grappler. When you have to make an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma save, the attacker is also affected and must make their own save. If the attacker is immune to the effect of their attack, they instead must make a save against the same DC or else be stunned until the end of your next turn.

I Can Do This All Day - Your body is only strengthened by adversity. When you have to make a Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution save, you may stand up, and can spend any number of hit dice to heal. If you have no hit dice, you heal one quarter your maximum hit points.

Misleading Footwork - Your maneuvers draw an enemy into a bad position. When someone within 30 feet would attack you or have you make a saving throw, first you move them up to fifteen feet closer to you, and then you move adjacent to them. Then you can make an attack against them. Then continue with your foe's original attack.

High-Level Flourishes
Eye of the Storm - Calm amidst the chaos of battle, when you make an attack you gain truesight 800 ft. until the end of your next turn, and you can ignore cover, concealment, and anything that is interfering with your senses or your ability to choose your actions, including illusions and charms. Then for your attack make either a melee attack against each creature within 20 feet of you, or make a special ranged attack: trace a path up to 800 feet long, which can turn any direction, and make one attack with your weapon against each creature whose space that path passes through. If you trace a path back to yourself, you can catch your weapon.

The Art of Butchery - When you hit with an attack, you deal a brutal wound. Choose a limb, mouth, or eye. If limb, the chosen limb drops anything its holding and cannot be used at all, such as to attack; if a leg, the creature falls prone and thereafter its speed is reduced by half. If mouth, the target cannot speak or use the mouth at all, such as to attack. If eye, the target is blinded. Whatever you choose, the target takes 20 damage at the end of each of its turns from bleeding or some other form of gradual degradation (such as by disrupting the energy flow of an elemental). This ongoing damage and the associated wound can be healed by a spending an action and succeeding a DC 20 Wisdom (Medicine) check, or by any effect that heals at least 20 damage. However, if the attack reduces the target to 0 HP, the wound is permanent until the target receives a regeneration spell.

To the Last, I Grapple With Thee - When you make an attack, you also make a Grab attempt with advantage, with no size restrictions. If you succeed, until the end of your next turn, the creature cannot free itself from your grab and forced movement can't move you away from your target. If the creature moves, you can choose to move with it, no matter the movement move - even flying, swimming, burrowing, teleporting, or traveling to another plane. As long as you maintain the grab, you have advantage on attacks against the creature and can ignore its resistances, you have advantage on saves against its attacks, and it has disadvantage to attack you. If the target is no larger than one size category bigger than you, your movement speed is not reduced while grabbing it. If the target you have grabbed moves to a different plane, you can use half your movement to drag both of you back to the previous plane.

Supremacy of the Real - When you attack an object or creature that was created or summoned by magic in the past five minutes, if you hit it, you destroy it.

good ideeas, have any out of combat ones. Designing combat abilities is easy IMO

 

[Quartz]

One situation where the Fighter - particularly the Champion - excels is extended combat. A 20th level Champion Fighter with decent armour and decent CON cannot be taken down by first level mooks doing standard weapon damage because the Survivor class feature means she regenerates more HP than she takes. (Yes there are other ways for the mooks to down the Fighter but play along.) But when was the last time your PCs took part in a battle that went thousands of rounds?

The maths is done here.

 

[RangerWickett]

good ideeas, have any out of combat ones. Designing combat abilities is easy IMO

Well, I was designing a fighter BBEG, not a PC.

For PC fighters, though, maybe you'd have Ordeals (inspired by the ordeals of Hercules).

Run the World - The fighter takes a short rest and gains a level of exhaustion, and they arrive anywhere in the world, with a margin of a few miles per the GM's preference. The fighter may bring along up to six additional creatures.

Challenge the Fates - The fighter spends a minute and announces how they have overcome extreme foes before, or they threaten the gods, or they simply meditate on what they will do if their demands are refused. If the fighter has defeated a challenge 17 creature or higher since they completed their last rest, they are granted a wish. (I got this one from the end of Hellboy.)

Stronger Than a Mountain - The fighter spends a short rest and gains a level of exhaustion, and can move landforms and reshape terrain within one mile. (Courtesy of Paul Bunyan.)

Lasso a Twister - The fighter spends a short rest and gains a level of exhaustion, and can change the weather within one mile. (Thank you Pecos Bill.)

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

@Cap'n Kobold, I think you have some good ideas. Some of them I would add as rider on fighter abilities:

Shear or smash through physical objects with your weapon. Harder objects (stone doors/walls and up perhaps) require a Heroic Surge.

Ruin bringer- You can expend your Action surge to gain advantage on STR check and deal double damage to objects.

When taking a short rest, you may instead gain the benefits of a Long rest. You must take three long rests before you can use this ability again.

Resurgence - Once per day, when you use Second Wind, you can gain the benefits of a short rest.

Good sport: When engaging in a physical contest, whether race, friendly spar, or drinking contest, you leave such a good impression that you have advantage on social ability checks on the people you competed against, even if you lost.

Warrior of Reconciliation - you gain a special benefit if you reduce a creature to 0 hit points with a weapon and decide to spare the creature's life. Instead of falling unconscious, the creature is charmed by you for 1 minute. During that time, the charmed creature is peaceful and docile, refusing to move or to take actions or reactions, unless you command it to. You can't order the creature to attack, force someone to make a saving throw, or cause damage to itself or others. This charmed effect ends early if you are incapacitated or if you or your companions attack the creature, deal damage to it, or force it to make a saving throw. When the effect ends, the creature falls unconscious if it still has 0 hit points.

Item improvisation: You carry such a variety of heavy, pointy or metal implements around that you are treated as having access to any thieves or artisan toolkit. You can kludge together a rough (no sell value) version of almost any mundane item that will last just as long as you need it to. Larger or complex items may require a minute or two and a tool-based ability check.

Artisan of war - As part of a short rest, you can harvest bone and hide from a slain beast, construct, dragon, monstrosity, or plant creature of size small or larger to create one simple weapon, a light or medium armor or a shield. You can also create a bundle of 20 ammunition. To use this trait, you need a blade, such as a dagger, or appropriate artisan's tools, such as leatherworker's tools.

Other ideas:

• Spend Action Surge to gain +10 initiative.
• Spend Indomitable to spend X HD.
• Spend Indomitable to gain proficiency in a save for X hours.
• Spend Indomitable to gain resistance to extreme heat/cold and ignore 2 level of Exhaustion
• During Action surge, +10 speed and gain a climb and swim speed equal to your speed.
• Shake it off - Use an Action to remove a charmed or frightened condition on an ally within X ft.
• Heroic Reach - When you take the Attack action, your jump speed is doubled and you have advantage on save to avoid falling damage.

 

[TheSword]

Except, spellcasters are also typically better in combat too.

I mean, sure, the Fighter can kill ten goblins with his sword, if he is 20th level and burns a chunk of his resources, he might even possibly be able to do it in 2 rounds.


Fireball does it in a single action, and by 20th level isn't even breaking a sweat for the Wizard.

Not to say there are not flaws to magic use, mostly because of concentration, but a wizard can solve combat problems a fighter simply cannot, like denying actions to the enemy, or protecting a crowd of civilians, or preventing a crowd of enemies from escaping. Along with being nearly as deadly if not deadlier, and solving out of combat problems too.



"Waiting" isn't a solution. It is losing.

Sure, they can't keep up the wall of force forever, but they know that to, so they are only trying to delay you until they can accomplish a goal. And your solution is to be delayed, because you have nothing that can do anything else.



Regenerating to half health, as a note.

And, an adult red dragon with warcaster literally can't fail a concentration check of less than 15, which means 30 damage in a single strike. With advantage and a +13, I'd give that wizard decent odds of needing to take over 44 points of damage in a single blow to lose concentration.

Meaning the fighter needs to just get through all 260 hp of the dragon, who is first of all going to open with a Breath weapon for around 63 damage, then rip and tear for 58 per turn... and when he turns back into a wizard, he just casts another spell like power word stun, or disintegrate or any number of nasty effects, with full health, because the fighter first fought a dragon.


And again, the idea that the wizard is losing out on combat, when they are actually more powerful in and out of combat, boggles me.

Because casters get loot and treasure too.

If the fighter needs to get a carpet of flying to start flying (something the wizard could already do) and the wizard gets a staff of fire to give them even more combat spells, the fighter isn't catching up. They are falling behind.

So many assumptions here. Not least that there is space for a gargantuan dragon.

The dragon with its +14 attack bonus is barely denting the magic full plate and magic shield fighter with the duelist feat, shield master and defense fighting style. It’s fire breath barely grazes the fighter because of indomitable, resilient and shield master.

Meanwhile the fighters attack bonus and 8 attacks in a round when surging is making short work of the dragons meager 19 AC.

Alternatively 44 damage in a round is not difficult for a GWM fighter when critting once or twice a round. Throw in the mage slayer feat to negate warcaster and all of a sudden there is medium sized wizard standing in front of you taking attacks of opportunity when it tries to cast misty step to flee.

I’m not saying wizards aren't good but frankly the suggestion that the best thing a wizard can do in a day is attempt to beat a fighter at it’s own game is a bit silly. Red dragons are objectively less tough and deal less damage than a 20th level fighter so it just isn’t the case to say wizards out-fight a fighter.

Shapechange is a last resort for a wizard out of spells not a first strike because what sane wizard gives up the flexibility of casting to become a sack of meat and hp with the ability to belch a warm spray at something that is probably resistant to fire.

Concentration and reducing slots above 5th level was a game changer. We’re not playing 3e anymore.

 

[FrogReaver]

So many assumptions here. Not least that there is space for a gargantuan dragon.

The dragon with its +14 attack bonus is barely denting the magic full plate and magic shield fighter with the duelist feat, shield master and defense fighting style. It’s fire breath barely grazes the fighter because of indomitable, resilient and shield master.

Meanwhile the fighters attack bonus and 8 attacks in a round when surging is making short work of the dragons meager 19 AC.

Alternatively 44 damage in a round is not difficult for a GWM fighter when critting once or twice a round. Throw in the mage slayer feat to negate warcaster and all of a sudden there is medium sized wizard standing in front of you taking attacks of opportunity when it tries to cast misty step to flee.

I’m not saying wizards aren't good but frankly the suggestion that the best thing a wizard can do in a day is attempt to beat a fighter at it’s own game is a bit silly. Red dragons are objectively less tough and deal less damage than a 20th level fighter so it just isn’t the case to say wizards out-fight a fighter.

Shapechange is a last resort for a wizard out of spells not a first strike because what sane wizard gives up the flexibility of casting to become a sack of meat and hp with the ability to belch a warm spray at something that is probably resistant to fire.

Concentration and reducing slots above 5th level was a game changer. We’re not playing 3e anymore.

why isn’t the dragon flying?