Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[FrogReaver]

His point, as I understand it, is that fighters not having magic items is an artifact of the DM not adjudicating them at the same rate the DMG suggests they are distributed. It would be like never introducing equipment past your starting equipment. Entirely up to the DM, but it's there for a reason.

Moreso, you literally have a guide to how many magic items are expected from an adventuring party in both the DMG and in XGtE.

not related to my point

 

[TheSword]

the challengewas clearly set up for a no magic items example. Why insist on adding magic items unless he’s right and those are needed to have any chance in that encounter? And if so doesn’t they kind ofprove the point?

I didn’t see that set up as an expectation sorry.

I guess I don’t see the martial/caster paradigm as a single issue subject. Taking out magic items, feats, terrain, circumstances, other encounters, other party members etc just isn’t talking about real d&d. Therefore really unhelpful when talking about ways to improve d&d.

 

[TheSword]

I’m sceptical after seeing this same debate for many years on the Paizo boards where it was almost universally accepted that while wizards were much better they couldn’t outfight a fighter.

Now with very limited high level slots, concentration, non-class-levelling spells and bounded accuracy I’m amazed people actually think the wizard can outfight a fighter in 5e

Its also a straw man argument to pit a 20th wizard against a 20th level wizard And pretend that happens in the game when in actual fact it’s both of them working together to defeat a number of encounters in a day. The wizard may play red dragon once. Then the fighter is still swinging in the second, third and fourth encounters.

 

[FrogReaver]

I didn’t see that set up as an expectation sorry.

I guess I don’t see the martial/caster paradigm as a single issue subject. Taking out magic items, feats, terrain, circumstances, other encounters, other party members etc just isn’t talking about real d&d. Therefore really unhelpful when talking about ways to improve d&d.

In fairness it’s not right for you to just dismiss that branch of the convo after going Into a lengthy and detailed comparison and counterpoint on the topic.

 

[Asisreo]

not related to my point

It wasn't your point to begin with, though, was it?

 

[Chaosmancer]

the problem with level 10 to impressive prestige class is that the prestige class has to be magic at that point or they still don’t compete with wizards. That’s a deal break for a lot of us.

so I say leave fighters inferiority mostly where it is and just make some cool features for them at that power level (maybe slightly higher).

I’d rather have mundane inferior fighters than turn every fighter into a magical one just to keep up.

The problem with that, is that many of us are not satisifed with inferior Fighters.

The wizard dimension doored straight into a wall, took force damage, and is still right where he is. Because dimension door doesn't have some "to safety" phrase. You give exact directions that may or may not help.

Really? Now we are assuming that there is a wall in the exact location the dimension door was going to hit?

At some point, you have so many "but what if" to constrain the situation, that it is simply ridiculous.

Now? Once the campaign has just gotten good? Heh, it sounds like an even better story has just emerged. Let's not stop once the ball has started rolling. Let's see how our heroes survive in this devil infested world and how they plan on getting it back. The gods can't be happy that this happened, perhaps we can go to the shrine to pray to them. Or maybe we can find a fiend who doesn't particularly like this leadership. I've started campaigns with similar scenarios, almost to a tee. I can't imagine it being a game I wouldn't like to play.

Well, not everyone else is satisified with seeing themselves losing, and all of their loved ones killed, because they didn't have the magic mcguffin.

Also, praying to the gods for what? Magic? How will the fiend help? Magic?

Almost like.... magic is the only solution to the problem, which was the original statement that was put forth. Which you dismissed with "well, we just wait for the effect to end.

Useless bags of meat. Cantrips can hardly keep up with melee damage dealers, even with invocations. They're also perfect punching bags and pin cushions for the enemy since they know the spellcaster is down, no more resurrections or annoying spells.

No, actually, you won't have 1st and 2nd level spells at-will at level 20. Where did you get the notion that a bard ever gets at-will higher level spells? Surely, you're using the entire collective abilities of spellcasters against the argument of a single fighter? Because that would hardly be fair.

Um, this has been a wizard against fighter? I don't know where you are getting the bard from. But, bards also have decent melee stats, so even if you don't count cantrips (and while 4d12 necrotic damage isn't the best, I'd say 26 damage on average isn't worthless by any means)

That'd be pretty clutch if the beholder was dumb, but beholders are not dumb. They'll be in the air pointing their antimagic cone downwards to have a 150ft diameter circle on the ground centered on the spellcaster. That way, no cover nor movement could have you escape the cone.

You sure they aren't dumb? Because that just made it so your only attack is to fly down and bite them. Which cancels that nice circle you just made.

Or are you forgetting that Beholder Eye Rays don't work within their own anti-magic field?

Fighters get indomitable and additional ASI's, as well as the option to grab resilient as a feat after their primary ability scores. Barbarians have danger sense and their primary saving throws go up to +13 each. Monks have Diamond Soul and can reroll failed saves as well as evasion. Rogues have evasion and slippery mind as well as an additional ASI/feat. In terms of saving throws, martials basically have a monopoly on features useful against them.

Anyone can take Resilient.

War Wizard can add a +4 to a save as a reaction. Bless is a spell that gives you a bonus to saves. Paladins are casters who give up to a +5 to all saves.

I'm sure I could find another few abilities if I looked. Martials have the most, but not every caster is helpless before the saving throw.

2) The fighter will have the option of spending a resource for the more amazing effects. The actual resource isn't important: Could be action surges, 2nd winds, Superiority dice. This is here for those abilities that people feel require a cost rather than just be freely usable. I'll just call them heroic surges for the moment.

One thing I've seen before is the idea of giving Fighters and other mundanes more ways to alter probability or use meta-resources. Giving them ways to effect the narrative.

Heroic Surges could be used in that vein.

So many assumptions here. Not least that there is space for a gargantuan dragon.

1) Adult Reds are Huge, not Garguntuan.

2) I didn't pick dragon. The other guy did.

The dragon with its +14 attack bonus is barely denting the magic full plate and magic shield fighter with the duelist feat, shield master and defense fighting style. It’s fire breath barely grazes the fighter because of indomitable, resilient and shield master.

I specifically said non-magical armor too.

But, even if I give +2 Plate and +2 Shield, Shield Master does nothing for AC. That is 25 normally with a boost up to 31 for one attack.

I can still hit that 31, and the AC 25 is half the time.

Indomitable is a single re-roll. Resilient Dex, we'll assume that gives you a +13 save, vs DC 21, So, decent chance. of succeeding.

But, all of this is assuming three specific feats, and 2 Very Rare magic items. Vs a single spell. Not even the full complement of the Wizard's abilties.

Alternatively 44 damage in a round is not difficult for a GWM fighter when critting once or twice a round. Throw in the mage slayer feat to negate warcaster and all of a sudden there is medium sized wizard standing in front of you taking attacks of opportunity when it tries to cast misty step to flee.

Up to five feats. Not saying the Fighter can't do it, just keeping track. The wizard by the way has a single feat used up on Warcaster. And has no magic items yet.

And, since when are we assuming crits? Also, that GWM means you don't have that shield for Shield master any more, so your AC just dropped 21/27 and your Dex save is now +9, giving 50/50 full damage and guaranteed half.

Additionally, your + to hit is +8 if we assume you used your last remaining ASIs on 20 strength and your using GWM. Meaning 19 AC is up to 50/50 to hit.

I’m not saying wizards aren't good but frankly the suggestion that the best thing a wizard can do in a day is attempt to beat a fighter at it’s own game is a bit silly. Red dragons are objectively less tough and deal less damage than a 20th level fighter so it just isn’t the case to say wizards out-fight a fighter.

Shapechange is a last resort for a wizard out of spells not a first strike because what sane wizard gives up the flexibility of casting to become a sack of meat and hp with the ability to belch a warm spray at something that is probably resistant to fire.

Concentration and reducing slots above 5th level was a game changer. We’re not playing 3e anymore.

The Dragon wasn't even my suggestion. It was the suggestion of the person I was responding to.

I agree, I'd kill the fighter with something much more guaranteed to work than going into melee with him as a dragon.

This is the problem with this kind of white room theorizing, because 20th level characters do have a careers worth of magic items which for a fighter is likely to include a magic sword, magic armour and magic shield if needed.

Shield mastery, Resilient, Indomitable all improve saves with very little cost.

Sure, but then you have to give the wizard an equivalent number of high level items.

If the fighter has Three Very Rare Items then the wizard can have three items too, and the balance can shift back to the wizard.

 

[FrogReaver]

It wasn't your point to begin with, though, was it?

when I make a counterpoint and you don’t answer the counterpoint it stops mattering what point came before it. I’ll go so far as to assume your most recent was true, conceding it because it doesn’t matter. It didn’t negate anything I said. It was just an attempt to shift focus away from a point you didn’t want to deal with.

so to answer your question directly - no it wasn’t my point to begin with. But that doesn’t really matter as elaborated on above.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem with that, is that many of us are not satisifed with inferior Fighters.



Really? Now we are assuming that there is a wall in the exact location the dimension door was going to hit?

At some point, you have so many "but what if" to constrain the situation, that it is simply ridiculous.




Well, not everyone else is satisified with seeing themselves losing, and all of their loved ones killed, because they didn't have the magic mcguffin.

Also, praying to the gods for what? Magic? How will the fiend help? Magic?

Almost like.... magic is the only solution to the problem, which was the original statement that was put forth. Which you dismissed with "well, we just wait for the effect to end.






Um, this has been a wizard against fighter? I don't know where you are getting the bard from. But, bards also have decent melee stats, so even if you don't count cantrips (and while 4d12 necrotic damage isn't the best, I'd say 26 damage on average isn't worthless by any means)



You sure they aren't dumb? Because that just made it so your only attack is to fly down and bite them. Which cancels that nice circle you just made.

Or are you forgetting that Beholder Eye Rays don't work within their own anti-magic field?





Anyone can take Resilient.

War Wizard can add a +4 to a save as a reaction. Bless is a spell that gives you a bonus to saves. Paladins are casters who give up to a +5 to all saves.

I'm sure I could find another few abilities if I looked. Martials have the most, but not every caster is helpless before the saving throw.



One thing I've seen before is the idea of giving Fighters and other mundanes more ways to alter probability or use meta-resources. Giving them ways to effect the narrative.

Heroic Surges could be used in that vein.




1) Adult Reds are Huge, not Garguntuan.

2) I didn't pick dragon. The other guy did.



I specifically said non-magical armor too.

But, even if I give +2 Plate and +2 Shield, Shield Master does nothing for AC. That is 25 normally with a boost up to 31 for one attack.

I can still hit that 31, and the AC 25 is half the time.

Indomitable is a single re-roll. Resilient Dex, we'll assume that gives you a +13 save, vs DC 21, So, decent chance. of succeeding.

But, all of this is assuming three specific feats, and 2 Very Rare magic items. Vs a single spell. Not even the full complement of the Wizard's abilties.





Up to five feats. Not saying the Fighter can't do it, just keeping track. The wizard by the way has a single feat used up on Warcaster. And has no magic items yet.

And, since when are we assuming crits? Also, that GWM means you don't have that shield for Shield master any more, so your AC just dropped 21/27 and your Dex save is now +9, giving 50/50 full damage and guaranteed half.

Additionally, your + to hit is +8 if we assume you used your last remaining ASIs on 20 strength and your using GWM. Meaning 19 AC is up to 50/50 to hit.





The Dragon wasn't even my suggestion. It was the suggestion of the person I was responding to.

I agree, I'd kill the fighter with something much more guaranteed to work than going into melee with him as a dragon.




Sure, but then you have to give the wizard an equivalent number of high level items.

If the fighter has Three Very Rare Items then the wizard can have three items too, and the balance can shift back to the wizard.

id say we keep the fighter non magical and add options but we can also add some magical fighter prestige classes. Say fighter 10 requirement. I’m not opposed to both as long as the mundane one stays.

 

[Asisreo]

Really? Now we are assuming that there is a wall in the exact location the dimension door was going to hit?

At some point, you have so many "but what if" to constrain the situation, that it is simply ridiculous.

Look, I get it, but in a crypt or dungeon, it's very likely the walls take up more area in a given dungeon.

Well, not everyone else is satisified with seeing themselves losing, and all of their loved ones killed, because they didn't have the magic mcguffin.

Also, praying to the gods for what? Magic? How will the fiend help? Magic?

Almost like.... magic is the only solution to the problem, which was the original statement that was put forth. Which you dismissed with "well, we just wait for the effect to end.

Don't take fall damage jumping to those conclusions. Anyone that isn't a player character has their life completely in the hands of the DM anyways. They were sacrifices needed to make a good story regardless. They aren't real people, though. I don't feel real-life horrible choosing a path that ended up with a character dying in a videogame because they aren't actual real characters.

A character prays to their god when something happens. That's just how playing a pious character works. Maybe the god intervene. Maybe he doesn't. Regardless, the show goes on. What do the characters do next? Because the characters will do something next.

You sure they aren't dumb? Because that just made it so your only attack is to fly down and bite them. Which cancels that nice circle you just made.

Or are you forgetting that Beholder Eye Rays don't work within their own anti-magic field?

Yeah, they're geniuses. They'd probably have minions to mop you up but I wasn't just going to surprise you with a beholder using common sense that I didn't establish.

The wizard would pretty much be in the same situation as a wall of force fighter. The beholder can still barricade the doors so long as they're outside his eye. And then the beholder can just continue doing what they need to do and leave.

Anyone can take Resilient.

War Wizard can add a +4 to a save as a reaction. Bless is a spell that gives you a bonus to saves. Paladins are casters who give up to a +5 to all saves.

I'm sure I could find another few abilities if I looked. Martials have the most, but not every caster is helpless before the saving throw.

Paladins are half-casters that sit in the camp of kinda martials kinda spellcasters. Rangers are the same and the Hunter gets the option to take evasion.

Using that reaction really limits your spellcasting ability as a war wizard. In fact, it's probably the worst defense for saving throws entirely since it completely shunts off your best feature nearly entirely. Bless is a pre-emptive spell, just like I said.

when I make a counterpoint and you don’t answer the counterpoint it stops mattering what point came before it. I’ll go so far as to assume your most recent was true, conceding it because it doesn’t matter. It didn’t negate anything I said. It was just an attempt to shift focus away from a point you didn’t want to deal with.

I've personally answered your point. I was clarifying another point that you seemed to have not understood, which was unrelated to your point.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've personally answered your point. I was clarifying another point that you seemed to have not understood, which was unrelated to your point.

I'm really not trying to be obtuse about it but don't you think I should be the one that gets to decide whether something you said actually addressed my point? Or at the very least that I deserve some say in the matter? If you really wanted to make a case that you answered my point, you could restate my point in your own words and elaborate on how something you said provided an actual answer to it. If you actually did that you might convince me, but just saying "i answered" and "you didn't understand my point" aren't very helpful phrases for continuing a conversation.