Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
You said the example assumed no magic items. I don't think any example that doesn't assume them is realistic, in my experience.
Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Yes, assume no magic items to establish that a fighter without them can’t beat a shaoeshiftedwizard without them. You agree with that right?
what makes you think a fighter with magic items will beat a wizard with magic items? Because so far you’ve only claimed a fighter with magic items will beat a wizard without them.
the point I made was that it takes a fighter with magic items to keep up with a wizard without them. If that’s the case then Doesn’t that prove wizards are stronger?
Neonchameleon
Legend
No. There is an assumption that the wizard has chosen to Shapechange or True Polymorph because being a dragon is cool. And they get to do things like flying and breathing fire. A wizard shapechanged into a dragon isn't the wizard in hardcore PvP mode - it's the wizard having fun in PvE mode playing a hordebreaker with a 60 foot cone breath attack that does 18d6 damage and recharges on average every three rounds.
And the assumption that a caster has all the spells are long gone. But the assumption that a mid-high level caster has some spells prepared for most common situations is just common sense. At tenth level the wizard has five cantrip slots (of which you seldom want more than two for combat), fifteen spell slots, and about fifteen spells prepared (assuming Int 20), not counting Arcane Recovery. This means that even if you assume most spell slots will be used in combat you can afford to prepare about three exploration spells and two social spells, leaving a further ten combat spells. (Note that a lot of the best spells, like Wall of Stone or various illusions can blur the line). With 5e's more flexible slots the idea that a mid level wizard can't go above and beyond in most non-combat encounters with at least one spell and their cantrips is an odd assumption.
TheSword
Legend
A fighters usual magic items substantially affect the things that fighters do best or fill gaps that then make them very effective. Magical weapon, magic armour, magic shield?
A wizards magic items usually allow them to do more of what they already do. Staves and wands. The Robes of the Archmage are probably the best increasing attack roll (most useful for cantrips when so many spells are save based) and spell DC by 2. This is the only item that adds to a wizards DC to my knowledge.
The magic items that a fighter gets will often protect against the effects of spells.
The magic items that a wizard gets can do little to protect against physical attacks. Even the robe of Archmagi will do little to blunt a high level fighters attacks.
Is this fair or am I totally out of whack?
TheSword
Legend
Im not sure pitting PC wizards against PT fighters is a good way of seeing which contributes the most to combat?
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I actually agree that wizards and other spellcasters have a lot more options, and that can translate to more "powerful", particularly at higher levels. I suggested a solution of capping mundane at 10 and moving to magical and/or supernatural prestige classes after that. You rejected this idea. I'm still not sure why this is a problem for you, but it's certainly your right to do so.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
wasn’t my example. Was one someone else came up with and you engaged in. Why’d you engage with it in the first place if it wasn’t a useful test?
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
because mundane only fighters should exist. I am fine having more magical prestige classes be options though.
TheSword
Legend
It was an interesting discussion that seems to have got out of hand.
I’ve seen these discussions since the days of PF1 and 3e. In this edition the problem is negligible.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They absolutely do exist...until level 10, when having them keep up with reality warpers and superheroes whilst remaining grounded in a natural universe that obeys the laws of physics snaps my personal reality suspenders to a painful degree.
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