Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[DND_Reborn]

I don't know why mythic fighters can't replace some ability checks or saving throws with attack rolls or AC.
I don't know why you can say "My fighter is a demigod or god's chosen" so he gets an epic boon (from a list) at level 7 and 15.
I don't know why anime fighters can't get flash steps and air slashes.

That is the issue, IMO, is there is no reason why you can't have these things, but for myself I would not have any interest in them. So, I am not going to take the time to develop them (unless I got paid LOL!).

But IME such issues are polar. A lot of people want mystic or magical fighters, others want only mundane but heroic ones. Two camps who could work together to help develop what the others want, and help ensure both results are balanced against each other, but most of us have too much going on to do that (at least right now).

 

[FrogReaver]

Actually I think it's the opposite.

I think the D&D community is kind of narrow-minded and can only think of or agree on togive a fighter. So we end up with the same ideas over and over and trying to get fighter's other classes' feature instead of creatiing new ones. Because creating new features put the duty of accepting the consequences on us.

I don't know why mythic fighters can't replace some ability checks or saving throws with attack rolls or AC.
I don't know why you can say "My fighter is a demigod or god's chosen" so he gets an epic boon (from a list) at level 7 and 15.
I don't know why anime fighters can't get flash steps and air slashes.

1. Presumably every character should be able to get a blessing

2. Flash steps and air slashes are magic.

the basic problem boils down to innate vs non-innate abilities. The community doesn’t seem keen on accepting non-innate abilities for fighters. Never mind clerics have them. Never mind druids do as well. Warlocks too. You don’t hear those arguments against the anyone can do it narrative control those classes provide.

Just because a warlock exists doesn’t mean no one else can make deals with devils. Just because a cleric exists doesn’t mean being a cleric is the only way to achieve divine power of the gods. Etc.

I think the argument against non-innate fighter abilities falls apart due to these examples. I’m on board.

 

[FrogReaver]

That is the issue, IMO, is there is no reason why you can't have these things, but for myself I would not have any interest in them. So, I am not going to take the time to develop them (unless I got paid LOL!).

But IME such issues are polar. A lot of people want mystic or magical fighters, others want only mundane but heroic ones. Two camps who could work together to help develop what the others want, and help ensure both results are balanced against each other, but most of us have too much going on to do that (at least right now).

well that and I don’t really think it’s possible to balance a heroic fighter with magical ones. At least not out of combat.

 

[Minigiant]

That is the issue, IMO, is there is no reason why you can't have these things, but for myself I would not have any interest in them. So, I am not going to take the time to develop them (unless I got paid LOL!).

But IME such issues are polar. A lot of people want mystic or magical fighters, others want only mundane but heroic ones. Two camps who could work together to help develop what the others want, and help ensure both results are balanced against each other, but most of us have too much going on to do that (at least right now).

On post 23, I listed TEN different versions of a high level fighter. Out of the 10, at least 1 should fit what every D&D sees as a high level fighter.

The issue is many people don't what to choose. For one reason or another they won't say. So we are held up at step 1.

1. Presumably every character should be able to get a blessing

2. Flash steps and air slashes are magic.

the basic problem boils down to innate vs non-innate abilities. The community doesn’t seem keen on accepting non-innate abilities for fighters. Never mind clerics have them. Never mind druids do as well. Warlocks too. You don’t hear those arguments against the anyone can do it narrative control those classes provide.

Just because a warlock exists doesn’t mean no one else can make deals with devils. Just because a cleric exists doesn’t mean being a cleric is the only way to achieve divine power of the gods. Etc.

I think the argument against non-innate fighter abilities falls apart due to these examples. I’m on board.

Those 3 are 3 different archetypes. 3 out of 10 that I described.

The problem is the community is too busy arguing about what they don't want, they won't develop the ideas enough to be options.

"What kind of high level fighter do you want?"
"I don't want X"
"No on no. I'm asking what do you want? What do you want the high level fighter to do?"
"No X and No Y"
"No, I said..."

 

[FrogReaver]

On post 23, I listed TEN different versions of a high level fighter. Out of the 10, at least 1 should fit what every D&D sees as a high level fighter.

The issue is many people don't what to choose. For one reason or another they won't say. So we are held up at step 1.



Those 3 are 3 different archetypes. 3 out of 10 that I described.

The problem is the community is too busy arguing about what they don't want, they won't develop the ideas enough to be options.

"What kind of high level fighter do you want?"
"I don't want X"
"No on no. I'm asking what do you want? What do you want the high level fighter to do?"
"No X and No Y"
"No, I said..."

Why are you replying to me like I’m against anything you’ve said?

i think it was a great springboard to discuss fighter possibilities. I don’t think all those fighters are possible though - at least not in d&d. The discussion has to go beyond “wants” at some point to what is realistically possible to achieve in design with the constraints we are given. That’s what I and many others have been discussing.

 

[Minigiant]

Why are you replying to me like I’m against anything you’ve said?

i think it was a great springboard to discuss fighter possibilities. I don’t think all those fighters are possible though - at least not in d&d. The discussion has to go beyond “wants” at some point to what is realistically possible to achieve in design with the constraints we are given. That’s what I and many others have been discussing.

I am not as pessimistic on the size of the design constraints. It's just thatthe community has to be dragged kicking and screaming on deciding which ones get in and how they look.

The possibilities are more or less known. The issue is that everything gets turned down. No spells. No flashy superhuman abilities. No blatant supernatural abilities. No stronghold. No followers. No gifts or boons. No guaranteed magic items. No expertise. No movie physics. No comic book physics. No anime physics.

If Morrus does a survey for fighter stuff, it's gonna be all over the place.

 

[DND_Reborn]

On post 23, I listed TEN different versions of a high level fighter. Out of the 10, at least 1 should fit what every D&D sees as a high level fighter.

The issue is many people don't what to choose. For one reason or another they won't say. So we are held up at step 1.

Yep, I remember your list. None of those are what a high level fighter should be IMO. A couple are close, but most are "mysticy" versions I have no interest in, personally. Even the ones that are close, are generally over the top. But, that is because I don't like demigod or superhero games for D&D. If I wanted such things, I would put them in levels 21-30.

If Morrus does a survey for fighter stuff, it's gonna be all over the place.

Completely agree. Which is why I said before it is very much a polar issue.

 

[FrogReaver]

I am not as pessimistic on the size of the design constraints. It's just thatthe community has to be dragged kicking and screaming on deciding which ones get in and how they look.

The possibilities are more or less known. The issue is that everything gets turned down. No spells. No flashy superhuman abilities. No blatant supernatural abilities. No stronghold. No followers. No gifts or boons. No guaranteed magic items. No expertise. No movie physics. No comic book physics. No anime physics.

If Morrus does a survey for fighter stuff, it's gonna be all over the place.

but my post offered a counter argument to the reasons against having. Many of those elements.

after all no one says the warlock is off limits because all characters should be able to make deals with powerful entities.

IMO the community is fine with such Classes, they just don’t realize it yet.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I propose this: when designing high level fighter abilities their power source should typically be external to the fighter.

whether that’s a blessing of a god or having an empire of loyal servants or being a demigod or having tons of magical items to augment their fighting, etc the power source for most of a fighters high level abilities should be external to himself. I think that solves all potential issues with conceptualization.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yep, I remember your list. None of those are what a high level fighter should be IMO. A couple are close, but most are "mysticy" versions I have no interest in, personally. Even the ones that are close, are generally over the top. But, that is because I don't like demigod or superhero games for D&D. If I wanted such things, I would put them in levels 21-30.


Completely agree. Which is why I said before it is very much a polar issue.

If WotC is anything to go by, polarizing issues tend not to be addressed at all in published form, given how it's impossible to get a majority behind any one idea. I very much hope it doesn't go that way here.