Level Up (A5E) Class redesign

[Charlaquin]

This would definitely be a complete deal breaker for me.

Agreed, though I think there is a good point underlying the suggestion. It sucks to feel like your character isn’t “complete” until late game, or to finally have your build come online, only to realize the campaign is nearly over. I think this is also part of where the desire for epic levels comes from, and is precisely why I don’t really care for 3e style multiclassing and hate prestige classes. People want enough time to play with their fancy toys. For this reason, I think it’s best to have a class’s defining features come early, and later features to feel like they’re adding more cool stuff on to an already functional class.

 

[tetrasodium]

This would definitely be a complete deal breaker for me.

Uhh... why? It's a very well established fact that only a small fraction of games get as far as tenth and the numbers drop into los single digit percentage
Spretty quickly. I don't think its unreaoto ask you to give some reason and details on why

 

[Charlaquin]

Uhh... why? It's a very well established fact that only a small fraction of games get as far as tenth and the numbers drop into los single digit percentage
Spretty quickly. I don't think its unreaoto ask you to give some reason and details on why

It’d just be boring. A big part of the demand driving the project is more interesting mechanical feature options at every level. Making 11th level and up “just more of the same” as what you got at levels 1-10 is pretty antithetical to that. Plus, unless multiclassing gets an overhaul (a feature that got ambivalent results in the initial poll, so probably still on the table but not a high priority), this would basically guarantee people who do play past 10th just multiclass to get more interesting features instead of boring upgrades to what they can already do.

 

[GreyLord]

I think part of why leveling up does not feel as massive a boost as it did in older editions is because it is not. It is due to how bounded accuracy and Proficiency bonuses usually work. I would say it does not apply as strongly to Wizards or Clerics/Druids as much as others, as they are spellcasters with tables that advance at a reasonable rate compared to older editions. This means that they are gaining considerable power when they level, as opposed to Fighters/Warriors and Rogues.

A primary example are skills. Each skill will, in theory, only increase in power every 4 levels. That leaves 3 dead levels where your skill levels are the same due to them being based upon the proficiency bonus. In older editions, they were going up (at least in 3e and after) every time you leveled up and put a skill point into them.

Another example are Warriors where each level they went up with their to hit (Attack Bonus). Between level 1 and level 2 you literally doubled in power in many instances (your hitting bonus doubled, and your HP doubled).

Except for hitpoints, this does not happen with several classes in 5e. Rather than look at increase in abilities every level, it is more of looking for a visible increase every 3-4 levels.

All classes also suffer with Saves in this same manner. The saves simply do not increase as drastically...nor do the spellcasters DC's to make it harder to save against in many cases. This also dilutes the perception of gaining a lot of power via leveling up.

The REASON I think they did this was that studies showed that the majority of gamers liked what we call the sweet spot. That spot for gaming was normally between levels 3-7. Thus, for a Attack Bonus/BAB you'd see something at maximum between +3 to +7. It is no accident that the Proficiency bonus in 5e goes between +2 to +6.

They tried to get it so the entire 20 levels are between the sweet spot. This has the effect of basically spreading out 20 levels of advancement in the same way the advancement went between levels 3 to 7 before. Thus, you have 5 levels of advancement spread over 20 levels in 5e in relation to older editions for many of the classes.

 

[CapnZapp]

5E deliberately front-loads classes. It's all about hooking players on the experience.

Apparently they did such a good job they haven't felt a need to go back and fill in the higher levels. Which of course is the opportunity this Level Up project bases it's entire existence on.

Few people play all the way up til level 20. I feel the talk about epic or immortal play is severely premature. Focus Level Up on offering it's customers a fun level-up experience throughout the existing 20 levels, and keep the ideas for level 21-30 abilities for a later follow-up product if and when Level Up is successful.

 

[tetrasodium]

5E deliberately front-loads classes. It's all about hooking players on the experience.

Apparently they did such a good job they haven't felt a need to go back and fill in the higher levels. Which of course is the opportunity this Level Up project bases it's entire existence on.

Few people play all the way up til level 20. I feel the talk about epic or immortal play is severely premature. Focus Level Up on offering it's customers a fun level-up experience throughout the existing 20 levels, and keep the ideas for level 21-30 abilities for a later follow-up product if and when Level Up is successful.

Yea its super front loaded if you limit your gaze to charisma or maybe dex based classes, but cavalier and a whole bunch of others that dont even start coming online till the campaign is in wrap up or in some cases long after it ended are very much not front loaded.

They haven't gone back to "fill in the higher levels " because the core class consumes so much design space in some classes that it doesn't leave room to move the archetype stuff forward & vice versa in others . Thsts one of the areas where 5e fights attempts at fixing it with small &simple changes because every class & sometimes archetypes themselves need their own structural overhaul bordering on complete rewrites to do it.

 

[StirFriar]

I would like to see optional replacements or changes to core abilities to change the feel of the character.
Examples:

• Rogues could give up one or more of their sneak attack dice for another combat ability
• Paladins could give up smites for another divine ability

 

[ScuroNotte]

Have all the classes resemble the Warlock’s Invocstions. At each level a player selects what feature(s) they would like their character to have, almost like PF2 but better.

 

[Horwath]

Have all the classes resemble the Warlock’s Invocstions. At each level a player selects what feature(s) they would like their character to have, almost like PF2 but better.

so, basically 4E?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

5E deliberately front-loads classes. It's all about hooking players on the experience.

Apparently they did such a good job they haven't felt a need to go back and fill in the higher levels. Which of course is the opportunity this Level Up project bases it's entire existence on.

Few people play all the way up til level 20. I feel the talk about epic or immortal play is severely premature. Focus Level Up on offering it's customers a fun level-up experience throughout the existing 20 levels, and keep the ideas for level 21-30 abilities for a later follow-up product if and when Level Up is successful.

Exactly.

People, on another thread, are already saying that a high level fighter should have epic boons and blessing, be on par with likes of Achilles and/or anime style super moves that breaks physics. Good, but if so: when you go so far to justify having decent power at level 11+? What does epic play adds if you are already the equal of a demi-god, a known powerful sovereign, able to shatter the laws of the universe with pure awesomeness?

Spellcasters are already there: At high level you can already make Wish to alter reality, create an army of clones, revoke a soul from the hands of the god of death, rain goshdarn METEORS! in a region, enough to destroy a nice town with a 6 second spell. And all that ONCE PER DAY. What does Epic levels can do? Throw planets at people? Slice gods in thin strips?

High level 5e is already ridiculous in term of power and setting-logic breaking features, do we really need even more power output? Many classes are known to have only boring stuff beyond level 11+ (ranger, monk, looking at you here), and if A5E is to offer a choice of meaningful features at each of the 20 levels of a class, for 12+ classes, I think the designers will lack new ideas if we ask them to do the same up to 30th level.