Level Up (A5E) Multiclass Subclasses

[Tales and Chronicles]

If you wanted to be an Eldritch Knight type of character, then you could represent that as a level 20 fighter, who effectively has all of the features of a level 7 wizard instead of having a sub-class.

That's funny how the eldritch knight had, indeed, the same level progression as a lvl 7 wizard. Never noticed that.
When you would gain another class level instead of your archetype feature, would you use your class HD value for HP or the multiclass class' HD?

 

[DND_Reborn]

One of the benefits of "re-writing the PHB" is that you can make simple changes to facilitate easy expansion, even if doing so would require changing all of the core classes. I mean, if you're going to re-write the classes anyway, then that opens up some big opportunities.

My suggestion, to facilitate multi-classing as sub-classes, is to standardize the levels at which each core class gains a sub-class benefit. If every core class gained their sub-class benefits at level 2/5/8/11/14/17/20 (for example), then you could implement a multi-class option where you gain core class features instead of sub-class features. If you wanted to be an Eldritch Knight type of character, then you could represent that as a level 20 fighter, who effectively has all of the features of a level 7 wizard instead of having a sub-class.

That way, you don't need to fill out a grid for what a ranger/barbarian and a ranger/bard look like; it's literally just ranger + barbarian class features, and ranger + bard class features.

Yeah, I presented this months and months ago and I still think it is a good idea.

D&D 5E - Archetype-Multiclass option initial concept

So, I got this idea after being inspired by another thread. If we think of archetypes like Arcane Trickster as a pseudo-multiclass character, how about a simple multiclass-theme archetype to replace multiclassing (or offer another option)? My idea is this: you take the features for each class...

www.enworld.org

You are a cleric (wizard) with wizard as your subclass. You get level 1 wizard when you would choose your cleric subclass, level 2 & 3 wizard when you get your next subclass feature for cleric, and so on. By the time you get your last subclass feature, you are effectively level 7 in your second class. So, you would be a cleric 20 (wizard 7).

It fixes multiclassing while allowing you to still progress with your main class to level 20. In exchange for giving up subclass features, you are getting the first 7 levels of another classes core features.

The issue is some core classes are stronger than others, and not all the classes gain subclass features at the same levels (they are close though in most cases and could be adjusted easily IMO).

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah, I presented this months and months ago and I still think it is a good idea.

D&D 5E - Archetype-Multiclass option initial concept

So, I got this idea after being inspired by another thread. If we think of archetypes like Arcane Trickster as a pseudo-multiclass character, how about a simple multiclass-theme archetype to replace multiclassing (or offer another option)? My idea is this: you take the features for each class...

www.enworld.org

You are a cleric (wizard) with wizard as your subclass. You get level 1 wizard when you would choose your cleric subclass, level 2 & 3 wizard when you get your next subclass feature for cleric, and so on. By the time you get your last subclass feature, you are effectively level 7 in your second class. So, you would be a cleric 20 (wizard 7).

It fixes multiclassing while allowing you to still progress with your main class to level 20. In exchange for giving up subclass features, you are getting the first 7 levels of another classes core features.

The issue is some core classes are stronger than others, and not all the classes gain subclass features at the same levels (they are close though in most cases and could be adjusted easily IMO).

more issues than that. You might want to dabble. Or you might want to split 50-50. Or you might want something more like 1/3 and 2/3.

 

[ThatGuySteve]

A unified subclass system would be good for multiclassing but also to make some subclasses that any character could take.

4E had paragon paths with a variety of prerequisits. Some were class specific, some race, and some could be taken by any character.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

5E multiclassing works, and a plus side is that it fits a narrative, and story is more important than mechanics fans like myself give it credit for. But so much of 5Es power scaling is tied into class level, like ability score bonuses being part of class progression and the power jumps at 5th, 11th, and 17th built into most classes. Outside of specific OP builds, multiclassing can really hurt your character.

But what if there's another way? Pathfinder 2 offers multiclassing as feats, spending your class feats on multiclassing instead of spending your levels. 5E doesn't have class feats (and I don't think it should, I think class choices should be limited to subclass, style, and some fun little things: the warlock is the best example of this). What 5E does have is Subclasses. So what if Subclasses could fill the roll of multiclassing for some characters? We already have the Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and Bladesinger that kind of do this. Arcana cleric and War cleric kind of do too, nature cleric and trickery cleric also.

My purpose here is to get ideas for what the Subclasses could be if you looked at the 121 combos of the PHB classes. I'll post an empty list, copy and paste and then fill in your ideas:

Barbarian
Barbarian/Bard:
Barbarian/Cleric:
Barbarian/Druid:
Barbarian/Fighter:
Barbarian/Monk:
Barbarian/Paladin:
Barbarian/Ranger:
Barbarian/Rogue:
Barbarian/Sorcerer:
Barbarian/Warlock:
Barbarian/Wizard:

Bard
Bard/Barbarian:
Bard/Cleric:
Bard/Druid:
Bard/Fighter:
Bard/Monk:
Bard/Paladin:
Bard/Ranger:
Bard/Rogue:
Bard/Sorcerer:
Bard/Warlock:
Bard/Wizard:

Cleric
Cleric/Barbarian:
Cleric/Bard:
Cleric/Druid: (Nature?)
Cleric/Fighter: (War?)
Cleric/Monk:
Cleric/Paladin:
Cleric/Ranger:
Cleric/Rogue: (Trickery?)
Cleric/Sorcerer:
Cleric/Warlock:
Cleric/Wizard: (Arcana?)

Druid
Druid/Barbarian:
Druid/Bard:
Druid/Cleric:
Druid/Fighter:
Druid/Monk:
Druid/Paladin:
Druid/Ranger:
Druid/Rogue:
Druid/Sorcerer:
Druid/Warlock:
Druid/Wizard:

Fighter
Fighter/Barbarian:
Fighter/Bard:
Fighter/Cleric:
Fighter/Druid:
Fighter/Monk:
Fighter/Paladin:
Fighter/Ranger:
Fighter/Rogue:
Fighter/Sorcerer:
Fighter/Warlock:
Fighter/Wizard: (Eldritch Knight?)

Monk
Monk/Barbarian:
Monk/Bard:
Monk/Cleric:
Monk/Druid:
Monk/Fighter:
Monk/Paladin:
Monk/Ranger:
Monk/Rogue:
Monk/Sorcerer:
Monk/Warlock:
Monk/Wizard:

Paladin
Paladin/Barbarian:
Paladin/Bard:
Paladin/Cleric:
Paladin/Druid:
Paladin/Fighter:
Paladin/Monk:
Paladin/Ranger:
Paladin/Rogue:
Paladin/Sorcerer:
Paladin/Warlock:
Paladin/Wizard:

Ranger
Ranger/Barbarian:
Ranger/Bard:
Ranger/Cleric:
Ranger/Druid:
Ranger/Fighter:
Ranger/Monk:
Ranger/Paladin:
Ranger/Rogue:
Ranger/Sorcerer:
Ranger/Warlock:
Ranger/Wizard:

Rogue
Rogue/Barbarian:
Rogue/Bard:
Rogue/Cleric:
Rogue/Druid:
Rogue/Fighter:
Rogue/Monk:
Rogue/Paladin:
Rogue/Ranger:
Rogue/Sorcerer:
Rogue/Warlock:
Rogue/Wizard: (Arcane Trickster?)

Sorcerer
Sorcerer/Barbarian:
Sorcerer/Bard:
Sorcerer/Cleric:
Sorcerer/Druid:
Sorcerer/Fighter:
Sorcerer/Monk:
Sorcerer/Paladin:
Sorcerer/Ranger:
Sorcerer/Rogue:
Sorcerer/Warlock:
Sorcerer/Wizard:

Warlock
Warlock/Barbarian:
Warlock/Bard:
Warlock/Cleric:
Warlock/Druid:
Warlock/Fighter:
Warlock/Monk:
Warlock/Paladin:
Warlock/Ranger:
Warlock/Rogue:
Warlock/Sorcerer:
Warlock/Wizard:

Wizard
Wizard/Barbarian:
Wizard/Bard:
Wizard/Cleric:
Wizard/Druid:
Wizard/Fighter: (Bladesinger?)
Wizard/Monk:
Wizard/Paladin:
Wizard/Ranger:
Wizard/Rogue:
Wizard/Sorcerer:
Wizard/Warlock:

What if all classes have the same basic table structure, in terms of when they get a subclass benefit.

Then, make 1-3 Subclasses for each class.

So, rather than make aSC for every combination

 

[DND_Reborn]

more issues than that. You might want to dabble. Or you might want to split 50-50. Or you might want something more like 1/3 and 2/3.

Or...

I might want to stick to the original premise. Sure, it was never fully developed, but the idea is solid and works perfectly fine given a bit of tweaking.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd like to remove most of the classes iand turn them all into subclasses of Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. But that's a bit beyond the scope of the "Level Up" project. Backwards-compatibility would be a major issue.

And I realize that I'm in the minority here. Most folks today want dozens of nearly-identical classes that can be combined with dozens of nearly-identical subclasses.

I'm down with that. Although I think there's an argument that the breadth of subclasses required for any one of those 4 classes would be enough to dilute the core features of the class to the point of not being worthwhile. And then you might as well go in the direction of a lot of classes with no subclasses.

I do think the best argument for less classes in the "Level Up" context is that you can then offer more variety of choices within each class. More classes will require more siloing by theme.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What if all classes have the same basic table structure, in terms of when they get a subclass benefit.

Then, make 1-3 Subclasses for each class.

So, rather than make aSC for every combination

Huh I think I accidentally deleted the rest of that sentence.

Rather than a subclass for every combination, you just have floating subclasses for each class that is the multiclass option for it. So, you add the Warlock subclass to the rogue to make a rogue/warlock.

 

[Elondir II]

The old schooler in me wants hybrid classes for all of the AD&D 2e gestalt combos from the 2e PHB. Some already exist, like fighter/mage, but not all of them. The triple combos of fighter/Mage/Thief and fighter/mage/cleric in particular.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The old schooler in me wants hybrid classes for all of the AD&D 2e gestalt combos from the 2e PHB. Some already exist, like fighter/mage, but not all of them. The triple combos of fighter/Mage/Thief and fighter/mage/cleric in particular.

We play that way in our main campaign.
My PC is a Cleric/ Rogue/ Wizard 11/11/11 (18th character level).
With two classes you'll max out at 20th level as 15th in each class.