Level Up (A5E) Do Player Characters Have Average Population Stat Distributions?

[CapnZapp]

If the statistical distribution of NPC stats does not conform to the rules presented for PC generation, then it creates a lot of problems. Invariably, it means that PCs don't play by the same rules as anyone else; and when the rules of the game reflect the reality of the game world, that basically amounts to codified meta-gaming (i.e. you succeed at the task because you're a PC; which rather cheapens any victory you might earn, when you know it's only because the rules are biased in your favor).

Even worse, unless the writers go out of their way to write up an entire separate set of rules for NPCs, it means we don't know how the rest of the world actually works. If the statistical distribution of NPC stats does not conform to the rules presented for PCs, then we have no idea what their distribution actually is. If a PC halfling is just as likely to have Strength 20 as a PC half-orc, and those rules don't apply to NPCs, then we can't extrapolate out how strong the average (or top 10%, or bottom 10%) halfling should be.

And to what end? To remove a couple of limitations on possible character concepts? Games are built on limitations! If you don't want limitations, then you might as well write up your level 900 god-king with all of the powers and magic items, and then never actually play them because characters without limitations are boring.

Sorry, that train has left a long time ago.

Monsters (including humanoid NPCs) already don't follow the same rules as PCs, so you're bringing up a problem that WotC has already decided is not a priority. Keeping DMs from having to create monsters the same way players create PCs was deemed much more important (and rightly so if you ask me - in fact the way 3E handled NPCs was the specific straw that broke the camel's back for me).

Thus the answer is no, all those problems aren't nearly as insurmountable as you make them out to be. Yes, there's codified meta-gaming, but you'll have to realize most gamers view that as an acceptable price to pay.

 

[CapnZapp]

You do not need mechanical differentiation of races for people to be interested in playing other races and for that to mean something in the story.

True.

But it sure helps. I would say it's a foundational feature of the fantasy genre for me.

Edit:

Somehow I got my proton streams crossed. Here's the correct quote:

You do not need mechanical differentiation of races for people to be interested in playing other races and for that to mean something in the story.

 

[akr71]

I like the PCs to feel heroic. If the table wants to play a game with 'ordinary' folk, that is quite easy to do at character creation time.

Currently, my table rolls 2 arrays of 4d6, drop the lowest. If we wanted more 'ordinary' PCs, we'd roll one array or go to 3d6.

 

[Krachek]

I observe that World building rules are for some DM as much important as a political or religious belief.
So it is a subject to handle with care.

 

[Morrus]

Is it really the job of Level Up to "fix" 5th edition in these regards? That's not a rhetorical question by the way - I have a hunch you are about to say "yes", Morrus. Personally though, I would leave those battles for WotC and 6th edition to fight, and focus on making Level Up look and feel as close to 5E as your lawyers let you!

"Fix" is a strong word. But some things written just 6 years ago feel dated today (for example the word 'race' is already starting to feel that way, with Paizo abandoning it last year, and WotC seemingly doing so now), and stuff written today may well feel dated in 6 years. It's not so much about fixing it as ensuring we do the right thing by people. Heritage is one area where we're paying special attention, and I suspect we'll be putting out more than one playtest packet and looking very carefully at the resultant survey data.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm almost certainly overly optimistic and naive, but I think it's still possible to leave in the idiosyncratic texture of racial bonuses but still allow for any race-class combination to be at the same mechanical baseline.

1) Leave point buy as-is.
2) Give each race/ancestry a +1 to a fixed stat and a +1 floating stat.
3) Give each race/ancestry a small feat selection (2-4 feats) that give bonuses based on desired tropes. Some of the feats are "half-feats" that give +1 ASI to a range of options, so that a +2 in any stat is achievable by that race if desired.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm almost certainly overly optimistic and naive, but I think it's still possible to leave in the idiosyncratic texture of racial bonuses but still allow for any race-class combination to be at the same mechanical baseline.

The question then becomes:

Is it desirable for heroes of every race to have the same potential for doing everything?

I humbly submit that, for example, the way elves and gnomes have an affinity for arcane magic while dwarves and orcs don't is a positive.

 

[tetrasodium]

Those numbers feel too low for a PC. One doesn't die on the first quest anyway.

Not really & you left off a +2 either by accident or.... What I said was "5 7 [7] 9 10 12 base & add a +1 base or magic item to one of those from your culture along with a +2 one from your background. " I accidentally only listed 5 stats instead of six, maybe throw in an extra 9 or 7 to bring that up to six attrib values & I'll use the 7 for the rest of this post.

Put that into perspective against the default array of 15,14,13,12, 10, 8/whatever pointbuy where you have stat bonuses of +2, +2, +1, +0,+0, -1 this works out to +1, +0, -1*, -2*, -2*, -3* with your culture including the ability to raise one of those odd numbered penalty atribs by one using the suggested base value or magic item based +1 attrib item & your backgound including a +2 base value or item. If you want to stick that culture item in your primary or secondary stat you could start with +2, +0, -1*, -2*, -3* or +1, +1, -1*, -2*, -2* -3* using the culture item to bump one of those odd number asterisked values by 1.

This allows quite a few things, but the most dramatic change is that there are immediately a lot of subjective ways to allocate your stats & the choice of both primary/secondary and dump stats will make different characters feel extremely different even within the same class. The room for growth including reasonable early goals like attribute boosting magic items people care about & are almost certain to not say "well I don't use $stat" or "bob is $class so obviously he should get the item that the gm put in pretty much for bob]". More importantly it also includes the ability to differentiate a martial with a little casting from a caster with a little martial or a pure martial/pure caster in a balanced manner right out of the gate without needing to do it too heavily because the dump stats now viscerally matter and you can set "do I use dex based finesse weapons, strength based martial weapons, or the int/wis [cantrip] wand weapons of a caster" to something other than a class level thing because those penalties are too big to accomidate something like CoDZilla no matter what abilities your class adds to the mundane staple attack choice you make. If you are building yourself a pure martial/caster your probably going to dump the stats for the other side of that coin. If you want to build a a gish you can & will probably wind up dumping saves so you can bring your secondary (ie dex/con) stats up to snuff or maybe any number of possibilities.

 

[TwoSix]

The question then becomes:

Is it desirable for heroes of every race to have the same potential for doing everything?

I humbly submit that, for example, the way elves and gnomes have an affinity for arcane magic while dwarves and orcs don't is a positive.

I would argue that it's desirable to be able to demonstrate the character of each race, but not that race should impact potential. I don't agree that an elf wizard should be better than a dwarf wizard, either at level 1 or level 20. I'd rather see something like that the dwarf wizard gets free medium armor proficiency, while the elf wizard gets extra cantrips and a free casting of mage armor.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hey, I'm just trying to help you with the transition when racial ASIs go away. Which we all know is coming.

Thanks, but your assistance is not needed. We've already removed racial ASIs and put in racial min/maxes, which makes more sense to us due to biological reasons. So, if they decide to float them (or move them elsewhere), we're already prepared to ignore it.