Level Up (A5E) Do Player Characters Have Average Population Stat Distributions?

[Phoebasss]

it seems like they will be in cultural/background options rather than tied to race. The big difference is that you might see something like dwarves getting a racial dr1/- or something instead of "medium armor proficient" +2con/+1 wis then picking up +2 con from "subterranian miners" culture and the +1 wis from say a warehouse manager background or whatever. on top of that you could have the half orc next door with the same culture & background if they both wanted +2con +1 wis.

Yeah, I think at this point we're past "racial +2s are a moral good." I am however more interested in having them be floating than being tied to background or culture. Because again, I'm interested in the story of how someone from a martial culture wound up without a martial education. Did they live out in the sticks? Did they have special privileges? Did they flee? Those are all stories that I think we can try to represent mechanically by not tying down character gen ASIs

 

[DND_Reborn]

Kinda.

Getting a +2 bonus to raise your Str from 8 to 10 saves you 2 points that can be spent elsewhere.

Using it to raise your 13 to a 15 (never mind 14 to 16) saves you 4 points.

So the Dwarf Orc wizard with a 10 Str is still strictly weaker overall than the Elf wizard, even if he ends up with the same Int. Their total attributes will be lower.

Does it break the game or give you an non-viable character? No, of course not. But it is what it is.

Oh, yeah, I know that "saved" two points using the racial ASI to go from 8 to 10 STR isn't going to likely be a 1-1 trade off, but at worst will be a 2-1 trade-off. However, that trade-off could be worth it in other ways. Maybe not in the focus of the class, but still useful nonetheless.

That was my point. Just because the ASI for a race aren't in the focus of the class, they are still useful most of the time (really... I think all of the time... but "useful" is subjective ).

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh, yeah, I know that "saved" two points using the racial ASI to go from 8 to 10 STR isn't going to likely be a 1-1 trade off, but at worst will be a 2-1 trade-off. However, that trade-off could be worth it in other ways. Maybe not in the focus of the class, but still useful nonetheless.

That was my point. Just because the ASI for a race aren't in the focus of the class, they are still useful most of the time (really... I think all of the time... but "useful" is subjective ).

The thing is, they may be ueseful in the “nice to have” sense, but a +1 Modifier to a “nice to have” ability just isn’t worth it in exchange for a -1 Modifier to your primary ability. As a wizard, I like having higher AC or HP, but not so much that I would ever voluntarily lower my spell attack bonus, spell save DC, and spells prepared by 1 to increase my AC by 1 or my HP by 1/level.

 

[Phoebasss]

The thing is, they may be ueseful in the “nice to have” sense, but a +1 Modifier to a “nice to have” ability just isn’t worth it in exchange for a -1 Modifier to your primary ability. As a wizard, I like having higher AC or HP, but not so much that I would ever voluntarily lower my spell attack bonus, spell save DC, and spells prepared by 1 to increase my AC by 1 or my HP by 1/level.

It's more of a sidenote, and probably for a different thread, but an additional problem is that strength doesn't do either of those things. It's by and large the weakest stat when its not your attacking stat. A strength +2 is even more of a push than the others to play someone who hits with strength

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah, I think at this point we're past "racial +2s are a moral good." I am however more interested in having them be floating than being tied to background or culture. Because again, I'm interested in the story of how someone from a martial culture wound up without a martial education. Did they live out in the sticks? Did they have special privileges? Did they flee? Those are all stories that I think we can try to represent mechanically by not tying down character gen ASIs

Having them tied to culture & background allows them to be used to push a picture of a GM's desired setting/corner of the world onto their players in a format the players want to examine & conform to in detail without needing the GM to spend a ton of work beuilding backgrounds & such that the players will immediately ignore Lets say I hypothetically want to set my campaign in Karrnath I could quickly slap together something like this

• Karrnwood dwellers: The manifest zone's bitter cold gives +2 con
• Rekkenmark dwellers: Dennieth's martial college results in people growing up here having a better education & better access to knowledge +2 int
• Lakeside dwellers: This harsh fishing village is home to Karrns who are no stranger to plying the local trade+2 dex
• Thronehold dwellers: he capitol city of what was once Galifar is split into 4 separate districts with strict monitoring & control over travel between. Residents are given special training in dealing with spies & saboteurs at regular intervals +2 wis
• Korth Dweller: As the capitol of our fine nation, Korth has a busy lightning rail station & frequent travelers from all 5 of the nations, residents are great at interacting with others. +2 cha
• Irontown dwellers: When the local trade is mining for iron & carting away stone for cannith to transmute even the Sending Stone operator's got some muscle +2str

Then I could pull out a couple backgrounds & maybe modify them as fits the game I want to run to give 1-2 options for +1 to each stat. Right away my players are going to center themselves in the corner of the world I want them centered in & they are going to reference it pretty often because those touchstones I threw together are tied to both my game and their primary/secondary attribute choices

 

[Charlaquin]

It's more of a sidenote, and probably for a different thread, but an additional problem is that strength doesn't do either of those things. It's by and large the weakest stat when its not your attacking stat. A strength +2 is even more of a push than the others to play someone who hits with strength

Yeah, Strength and Intelligence seem to be the weakest stats this edition if they aren’t your primary. There are ways around this, of course, such as using the Encumbrance rules and encouraging players to take action to confirm suspicions before acting on them. But in general, those two stats just don’t do much if they aren’t your primary (which is why this argument tends to focus on halfling Barbarians and dwarf Wizards instead of Tiefling rogues and half-orc bards).

 

[glass]

PCs are exceptional in 5e. That is a trend from 4e.PCs are weirdo freaks. That's why the folk hero leaes the farm. Because he relizes that he could adventure.

It is a trend from OD&D in 1974, if Old Geezer (a former poster at RPGnet who purportedly played at Gary's table) is to be believed. EDIT: Not intending to imply that I did not believe him, just not expecting people here to take my word about his words about what happened at someone's table before I was born as gospel...

_
glass.

 

[Phoebasss]

Having them tied to culture & background allows them to be used to push a picture of a GM's desired setting/corner of the world onto their players in a format the players want to examine & conform to in detail without needing the GM to spend a ton of work beuilding backgrounds & such that the players will immediately ignore Lets say I hypothetically want to set my campaign in Karrnath I could quickly slap together something like this

• Karrnwood dwellers: The manifest zone's bitter cold gives +2 con
• Rekkenmark dwellers: Dennieth's martial college results in people growing up here having a better education & better access to knowledge +2 int
• Lakeside dwellers: This harsh fishing village is home to Karrns who are no stranger to plying the local trade+2 dex
• Thronehold dwellers: he capitol city of what was once Galifar is split into 4 separate districts with strict monitoring & control over travel between. Residents are given special training in dealing with spies & saboteurs at regular intervals +2 wis
• Korth Dweller: As the capitol of our fine nation, Korth has a busy lightning rail station & frequent travelers from all 5 of the nations, residents are great at interacting with others. +2 cha
• Irontown dwellers: When the local trade is mining for iron & carting away stone for cannith to transmute even the Sending Stone operator's got some muscle +2str

Then I could pull out a couple backgrounds & maybe modify them as fits the game I want to run to give 1-2 options for +1 to each stat. Right away my players are going to center themselves in the corner of the world I want them centered in & they are going to reference it pretty often because those touchstones I threw together are tied to both my game and their primary/secondary attribute choices

While I think this is neat, and maybe a good place for +1s, I do still take issue with the idea that we need to do this. Why can't I be a shut-in from Korth? Someone born on the lakeside who never got the hang of fishing? Why aren't those valid character ideas? They still connect to the setting, just in a different way. I sympathize a lot with the idea that adventurers are outcasts, because if they weren't, they never would have left home.

EDIT: I feel like +2 Cha doesn't solve the roleplaying problem you're trying to solve here is the main thing. If your players aren't looking to their background and character concept to inform their actions, you're not gonna solve that with a +2.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Karrnwood dwellers: The manifest zone's bitter cold gives +2 con

• Rekkenmark dwellers: Dennieth's martial college results in people growing up here having a better education & better access to knowledge +2 int

Bonus vs cold damage.

• Lakeside dwellers: This harsh fishing village is home to Karrns who are no stranger to plying the local trade+2 dex

Bonus on ability checks to swim; bonus tool proficiencies.

• Thronehold dwellers: he capitol city of what was once Galifar is split into 4 separate districts with strict monitoring & control over travel between. Residents are given special training in dealing with spies & saboteurs at regular intervals +2 wis

Bonus on certain Insight checks.

• Korth Dweller: As the capitol of our fine nation, Korth has a busy lightning rail station & frequent travelers from all 5 of the nations, residents are great at interacting with others. +2 cha

Resistance to lightning damage!

• Irontown dwellers: When the local trade is mining for iron & carting away stone for cannith to transmute even the Sending Stone operator's got some muscle +2str

Mining tools proficiency, increased carrying capacity.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It is a trend from OD&D in 1974, if Old Geezer (a former poster at RPGnet who purportedly played at Gary's table) is to be believed.

Mike Monard (aka Old Geezer) is definitely a good source for tales of OD&D, but the trouble with tales of OD&D is that the anecdotes varied widely.

I think that a better and more accurate statement is that in the rules as written, there has been a strong and continuing evolution, over time, to have more abilities placed within the realm of the character, and less within the realm of experience.

Put another way- the trend has been away from gaining exceptional abilities through adventure (acquisition of magic items, gold, and sometimes special abilities), and instead shifted toward inherent power acquisition as you increase in level.