D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[Gammadoodler]

But the big thing here is that the defense of the monk comes down to, "Monks are fine through Tier 2, if you don't use feats or magic items". That, to me, sure looks like an admission that "Monks lag a bit in Tier 2, unless you're fighting single-BBEGs to stunlock."

Or, alternatively, that Monks do not receive much support from non-class resources, which is true, but it's not something you should be blaming on the class.

 

[FrogReaver]

My biggest pet peeve in the monk discussion is that the monk often has so many ways of granting the party advantage and none of these are ever factored into DOR discussions.

2nd pet peeve is that the monk ac is actually not bad. Typically starts at 16. Which is better than a rogues and equal to a great weapon fighters. It scales up to 18 a little slower but ends up in the same place.

The monk downside In defense is hp total and hyper specific damage reduction abilities. Missiles and dex save defenses are good but nowhere near universal which has the tendency to make him feel much weaker in a typical encounter.

I think part of the monks bad rap is that they are kind of bad from levels 11+. Which I think everyone is in agreement with.

 

[Undrave]

2nd pet peeve is that the monk ac is actually not bad. Typically starts at 16. Which is better than a rogues and equal to a great weapon fighters. It scales up to 18 a little slower but ends up in the same place.

The Rogue should ideally not be in a position to be attacked often.

The monk downside In defense is hp total and hyper specific damage reduction abilities. Missiles and dex save defenses are good but nowhere near universal which has the tendency to make him feel much weaker in a typical encounter.

The monk is a weird mix of specializing in niche things and being a generalist in the most common stuff. It doesn't make for a good table feel and is just not very optimization friendly away from the table.

 

[Stalker0]

2nd pet peeve is that the monk ac is actually not bad. Typically starts at 16. Which is better than a rogues and equal to a great weapon fighters. It scales up to 18 a little slower but ends up in the same place.

So this is where we have to look at the notion that “not all levels are created equal”.

your point is true at 1st level, but 1st level is intentionally designed to be moved through quickly, and many games start at higher levels.

Then from levels 2-7 the monk has lower AC. This is the “sweet spot” of gaming, the vast majority of games and tables are playing in this level range.

then at 8th level the monk equalizes (assuming specific stat bumps...and the fighter is not taking feats that boost AC...which is generally a reasonable if not rigid assumption). However for many campaigns this is epilogue time...the game is starting to wind down.

So for the vast majority of “screen time” at the table, the monk has worse AC.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I wonder how much of a power boost it would be to allow a monk to use Dex or Wis (monks choice, in place of Str) for any and all athletics checks (certainly thematic with martial arts)?

I personally wouldn't allow it. Even though monks get to jump further than others by using their magic, an athletic and powerful Str 16 monk should be able to jump further than a couch-potato Str 8 one.
I'm not seeing the theme that requires changing that.

In terms of mechanical balance, I'd probably allow it, but only if there were not Strr or Athletics- based characters in the party.

IMO, many of these "monks suck" comments come from people like Treantmonk who place a heavy emphasis on optimization, and if you're not in the top 10% of whatever you're evaluating, you suck.

I think that this was the issue. Monk performance is good compared to a standard member of a similar class, but you can't optimise a monk to deliver performance far better than standard like you can with other classes.

The Monk suffers from the 'Jack of All Trade, Master of None' symdrome,

I would agree that that saying fits the monk, but only if you actually include the rest of it.

The thing is, the Monk doesn't HAVE the option to invest more into Damage. It has no GWM feat or PAM feat, and barely any magic item support. There's nowhere to go with your Monk's damage.

- Again. Its hard to twist a monk to deliver twice the class' usual damage like you can with the fighter for example.
The class has a very standardised advancement, with little room for effective variation.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The thing is, the Monk doesn't HAVE the option to invest more into Damage. It has no GWM feat or PAM feat, and barely any magic item support. There's nowhere to go with your Monk's damage.

Yes they do, and a really good one. Since you're talking feats, my aforementioned shadow monk? I took the magic initiate feat and got hex. Hex with a monk is crazy good, for obvious reasons.

 

[FrogReaver]

So this is where we have to look at the notion that “not all levels are created equal”.

your point is true at 1st level, but 1st level is intentionally designed to be moved through quickly, and many games start at higher levels.

Then from levels 2-7 the monk has lower AC. This is the “sweet spot” of gaming, the vast majority of games and tables are playing in this level range.

then at 8th level the monk equalizes (assuming specific stat bumps...and the fighter is not taking feats that boost AC...which is generally a reasonable if not rigid assumption). However for many campaigns this is epilogue time...the game is starting to wind down.

So for the vast majority of “screen time” at the table, the monk has worse AC.

You are making many assumptions there. There’s no guarantee armors can be upgraded at any specific level. For example in my current campaign my cleric is level 6 and just now got plate - previously had chain mail.

But let’s assume you can buy plate at earliest convenience. That’s like level 2 for scale and level 4 for plate? The monk is 1 AC behind And only on about half the levels.

being 1 ac behind is not enough to say he has bad defense.

 

[Undrave]

Yes they do, and a really good one. Since you're talking feats, my aforementioned shadow monk? I took the magic initiate feat and got hex. Hex with a monk is crazy good, for obvious reasons.

Hex once per day and with concentration (something that relies on your CON?) is about the best you can do... it's only because Hex is good. And what did you sacrifice to get that feat exactly?

 

[FrogReaver]

Hex once per day and with concentration (something that relies on your CON?) is about the best you can do... it's only because Hex is good. And what did you sacrifice to get that feat exactly?

perhaps the biggest issue is the bonus action competition...

still a strong boss fight ability Though.

 

[Stalker0]

But let’s assume you can buy plate at earliest convenience. That’s like level 2 for scale and level 4 for plate? The monk is 1 AC behind And only on about half the levels.

being 1 ac behind is not enough to say he has bad defense.

so I checked this statement with various “character by wealth” posts over the years...and it looks like your absolutely right. I guess in my games (both run and played in) we get a lot of treasure so I am used to see plate at 2nd level...but By the book that is not a reasonable assumption.

So it does seem that the monk AC is much more comparable at the lower levels, and only falls behind a bit in the 5-7 range.

I would still argue from my OP that the monks defensive lack isn’t just pure AC, it’s also hp recovery. The lack is class based healing (except from the 6th level open hand) does reduce the monk a good bit as well.

Perhaps the intention then Is the Monks ki dodge is meant to serve as that per encounter damage mitigation. I would argue it’s a poor substitute, mainly because its unreliable (you don’t know if you’ll get attacked vs you know when you need healing) and because it consumes your bonus action, which denies you offense or other abilities.

I think then a small tweak that could probably fix the issue is to allow patient defense to also be triggered as a “reaction to an attack roll”. That eliminates the two issues, which I think would be enough to give the monk the needed defense