D&D 5E Another monk thread! Fixing the Way of the 4 Elements

[GlassJaw]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

It needs to be completely reimagined and redesigned from the ground up.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Yes. I’d be nice if the 4e monk had the equivalent of a 1/3 caster progression on top of it’s base monk ki.

The 4e monk gets access to spell powers at faster rate then a 1/3 caster.
The monk gets access to 2 level spells at 6th level, 3rd level spells at 11th, and 4th level spells at 17th. The spell progression for 1/3 casters is delayed by 2 levels compared to the 4e monk progression.

What is so terrible about a Ki based Hold Person spell at 6th level? Thunderwave, gaseous form, gust of wind, fly...these all seem like solid effects to have powered by a Short Rest recharged resource like Ki points.

The venom people feel about the subclass is so extreme. Not only must the subclass be killed, * gutted* and dragged through the streets....it must be burned to ashes, and forgotten, so something else takes it's place.

Ok...or how about you toss Elemental Attunement, give the subclass all 4 Elemental Cantrips.
Maybe a bonus to Ki points at 11th level that can only be used on 4e powers.

The first step on getting it back on track would be to gut it

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure

 

[Stalker0]

I saw a simple Houserule just the other day that would definately help with 4E.

reduce the total cost of KI spent on elemental abilities by 2 (minimum 1).

This means you get everything cheaper, and you get some “free” spell upgrades without spending more KI. Not as comprehensive as some other ideas, but very simple to implement

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

My house rule is that all elemental disciplines become a bonus action instead of a standard action. That way the monk can both fight and use magic simultaneously.

 

[Todd Roybark]

To more closely model the way a Warlock's Pact Magic works, what if the 4E monk also got some built in upcasting.


Have the Maximum Ki points for the spell table also become a Minimum Effect table.
A 5th level monk could use Fist of Four Thunders, for 2 Ki, but get an effect like they spent 3 Ki on it.

 

[Parmandur]

WotC did provide a fix in SCAG, and reprinted it in XGtE, Mearls said as much at the time: there is nothing wrong with the math of the Four Elements (using the Spell Slots already built into the Monk chassis), but the Sun Soul is what people wanted to play really.

Every other spellcasting classes gets spells AND spell slots to cast them.
Way of Five Elements just gets the spells and needs to use existing resources to cast. It can't do more per day.

An easy fix would be getting 1 free use of each power per short rest 'n' an extra use by spending ki.

The secret of the Monk is that it already has Short Rest Spell slots, transformed into Spell Points and given another name (check the math, the Monk Ki is exactly a Spell Point using half-caster equivalent of the Warlock).

As such, the math dictates that a spell using Monk has to use Spells like the Four Elements Monk does. But that's not what people want, they want to be Zuko from the Last Airbender.

 

[TrueAlphaGamer]

I, too, feel as though the whole subclass should simply be completely reworked. In emulating ATLA with the 5e Monk chassis and gameplay restrictions, they ended up with what just became a mess of disparate elements (heh, get it?). I think the addition of spellcasting is mainly uninspired and dull, while also not lining up with the fantasy of being a 'bender' all too well. Some of the more uniquely designed disciplines do fit with the 'bender' theme, but stuff like 'cone of cold' and 'gaseous form' is just kind of "eh". Where's the stone levitation? Riding on a ball of wind? Blood bending? Making shelters and houses from earth? The fantasy isn't fulfilled, nor can it really be fulfilled if we're just going off of ki and short rest resources (note that much of the bending in ATLA was basically at-will power, which doesn't fit with 5e balance).

Course, if I were to redesign it, I would depart from the ATLA four elements style entirely, and expand it to 5 elements, based on the ideas of Chinese Wuxing (with wood, fire, earth, metal, and water), since I think that fits the monk's archetype much better. Giving at-will abilities that tie into these elements would be paramount, if not cantrips or cantrip-esque features (I think Four Element's 'Elemental Attunement' discipline actually did this quite well), then at the very least the ability to change your martial arts damage to a specific elemental damage type. In addition, more unique abilities that aren't just "you can cast X spell using Y ki at 17th level", so the feeling of being a cool monk warrior controlling the elements in meaningful ways isn't gated by absurd level requirements. Perhaps having many abilites which each upgrade in power as you gain levels might be a cool option. Regardless, it isn't good the way it is, and I don't think it can be good without huge changes to how the subclass works.

 

[Asisreo]

I actually think ATLA characters are Druids. It fits much better considering the characters rarely ever actually connect a punch or kick.

 

[Stalker0]

Ultimately the greatest failing of the class in representing ATLA is its not at will. Ultimately that’s what a player really wants, it’s basically martial warlock with elemental powers as the invocations.

so making the abilities cheaper helps, but ultimately what players really really want so is elemental control at Will

 

[Marandahir]

I, too, feel as though the whole subclass should simply be completely reworked. In emulating ATLA with the 5e Monk chassis and gameplay restrictions, they ended up with what just became a mess of disparate elements (heh, get it?). I think the addition of spellcasting is mainly uninspired and dull, while also not lining up with the fantasy of being a 'bender' all too well. Some of the more uniquely designed disciplines do fit with the 'bender' theme, but stuff like 'cone of cold' and 'gaseous form' is just kind of "eh". Where's the stone levitation? Riding on a ball of wind? Blood bending? Making shelters and houses from earth? The fantasy isn't fulfilled, nor can it really be fulfilled if we're just going off of ki and short rest resources (note that much of the bending in ATLA was basically at-will power, which doesn't fit with 5e balance).

Course, if I were to redesign it, I would depart from the ATLA four elements style entirely, and expand it to 5 elements, based on the ideas of Chinese Wuxing (with wood, fire, earth, metal, and water), since I think that fits the monk's archetype much better. Giving at-will abilities that tie into these elements would be paramount, if not cantrips or cantrip-esque features (I think Four Element's 'Elemental Attunement' discipline actually did this quite well), then at the very least the ability to change your martial arts damage to a specific elemental damage type. In addition, more unique abilities that aren't just "you can cast X spell using Y ki at 17th level", so the feeling of being a cool monk warrior controlling the elements in meaningful ways isn't gated by absurd level requirements. Perhaps having many abilites which each upgrade in power as you gain levels might be a cool option. Regardless, it isn't good the way it is, and I don't think it can be good without huge changes to how the subclass works.

They tried to do that a bit with the Mystic Order of the Wu Jen (D&D's take on the 5 Chinese elements magic users). It didn't do well, likely in part because classes & subclasses named Samurai, Ninja, Kensei, Sohei, Shugenja, Wu Jen, etc are culturally insensitive as they pigeonhole those concepts and are often created by a white dude who likes anime.

Doesn't mean we didn't get Samurai and Kensei in the end with Xanathar's (though Samurai especially has had blowback). I'd argue if they had called it the Mystic Order of the Elements, it would have been more successful.

That said, Mystic failed because it wasn't a class so much as a collection of mini-classes that use psionics. The way it fell apart really indicated that Psionics work better as subclasses of existing classes than as their own class that encompasses all of them (I still think there's room for a separate Psion/Mystic, though, that focuses on being an Intelligent psychic caster/investigator/etc).