D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[NotAYakk]

As highlighted above, that's down to a question of narration, not an issue with the rules.

Thokk: 'I stab the Elf'
DM: (narrating) 'As you're all taking about what to have for dinner, Thokk screams in rage, his hand reaching for his sword, and murder in his eyes... directed at the Elf! Roll initiative!'

Drop the "screams in rage" bit. That is taking narrative agency away from the one thing Players have; their PCs.

 

[Flamestrike]

Drop the "screams in rage" bit. That is taking narrative agency away from the one thing Players have; their PCs.

It's a collaborative game. If the player wants to sook it up at something so pendantic, he knows where the door is.

 

[robus]

Monsters have AC's and Hit Points. So yes, murder is uncertain.

If the described action would achieve the desired result with no uncertainty then I would rule it a success and move on. But I’ll leave it there and we can agree to disagree.

 

[Flamestrike]

If the described action would achieve the desired result with no uncertainty then I would rule it a success and move on. But I’ll leave it there and we can agree to disagree.

Give me an example.

An NPC assassin sneaks up on my sleeping 5th level Fighter. He puts his sword to my neck and pushes hard.

Auto-kill in your game, or do the rules apply?

By rules I mean: The DM narrates the action, surprise is determined, then positioning, then initiative, then turns taken in order.

 

[robus]

Give me an example.

An NPC assassin sneaks up on my sleeping 5th level Fighter. He puts his sword to my neck and pushes hard.

Auto-kill in your game, or do the rules apply?

By rules I mean: The DM narrates the action, surprise is determined, then positioning, then initiative, then turns taken in order.

I would not do that to my players because I take my role seriously.

 

[Flamestrike]

I would not do that to my players because I take my role seriously.

If you took your role seriously, you'd simply apply the rules.

Determine surprise (the Fighter is surprised). Positioning is obvious. Then roll initiative.

Fighter goes first: As you sleep, you feel a sharp cold edge on your neck. Your eyes snap open and you see a darkly cloaked figure holding a sword to your throat and pressing down! You're surprised, you cant take actions or move and your turn ends. You can now take reactions.

(Assassin then makes an attack roll at advantage due to the prone Fighter, gaining sneak attack damage, and a critical hit due to the fighter being unconscious at the moment of the attack).

He could miss (even with advantage) or roll terrible damage. The Fighter could well survive.

Assassin goes first: Assassin makes an attack roll at advantage due to the prone Fighter, gaining sneak attack damage, and a critical hit due to the fighter being unconscious and his class feature.

He could miss (even with advantage) or roll terrible damage. The Fighter could well survive.

The only time I would not apply the rules, is when the result is inconsequential to the story. Grog the 20th level Barbarian wants to murder a cowering Goblin, then whatever. It's not worth rolling initiative etc to determine something that doesnt matter.

 

[Flamestrike]

For those of you that dont get it, the above is a discussion of the rules on when Combat starts, how to determine Surprise, and how they work from the guy that wrote them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is a fair point. If the player declared the Attack action, they shouldn't be able to pull it back after initiative is rolled. There are no guarantees to the Assassinate ability when the dice come out.

There is no such thing as declaring an attack action...

although I am playing in my mind doing this in the first round of combat and then rolling initiative with bonuses depending on the action chosen. The rest of the encounter will then follow the normal rules using those rolled numbers.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Let me try working my way through this without referencing the books:

First up, stealth =/= initiative. These are different attributes. Okay...

- Player has a PC who is unnoticed by foes.
- Player declares their PC attacks, starting combat.
- PC rolls lower initiative than foe. Foe was surprised, but recovered wits faster than PC's attack. You see this in manga like 'One punch man' where preceding frames can mislead the reader when tables are turned.
- PC still manages a critical hit! Well, tables turn again, but we can narrate this as more luck than skill.
- PC rolls higher initiative than for. Foe is surprised and PC has advantage on first attack if remains unnoticed. By memory, bursting from bushes and rushing over to attack in melee doesn't give advantage.

Well now, let's check the books and see if it's right.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

- PC rolls higher initiative than for. Foe is surprised and PC has advantage on first attack if remains unnoticed. By memory, bursting from bushes and rushing over to attack in melee doesn't give advantage.

5e is a bit woolly on this, but I believe that under these circumstances the PC would be considered to still have "hidden" status until they attacked, and therefore have advantage.