D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
Yeah, I'm more comfortable with that too. It models the stealthy knife kill.

I recall 3E haven't stricter stealth rules which didn't allow leaving cover.
 

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Out of combat it is a DM decision as it was in both editions before. Facing was only eliminated from combat.

You're not revealed from hiding until after the attack is resolved (hit or miss) barring the Skulker feat.

The issue is raised where you have to cross ground in the open to get to your target; then it does become DM call (maybe you can sneak up behind your target, even though there is no technical 'facing' etc)
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
I recall a 3E battle where the rogue left the bushes to stab a Barghest and was denied their sneak attack due to not being hidden. It was near the end of a combat (where the PCs were getting taken apart - much gnashing & roaring), so within the initiative cycle.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Give me an example.

An NPC assassin sneaks up on my sleeping 5th level Fighter. He puts his sword to my neck and pushes hard.

Auto-kill in your game, or do the rules apply?

By rules I mean: The DM narrates the action, surprise is determined, then positioning, then initiative, then turns taken in order.
Well, for starters, this example could pnly happen in my game after a series of serious failures by the PCs, because I'm not a jerk GM.

That said, if I thought the outcome of this wasn't uncertain, then, yup, better grab a new character sheet. The fundamental play loop of the game remains unchanged: it is the GM's authority to decide if player actions declarations succeed, fail, or are uncertain. The more detailed resolution mechanics for combat do not change this. Granted, the rules atrongly lean towards treating any violence as uncertain, largely because such a huge chunk of thise rules deal with uncertain violence resolution, but it doesn't remove the GM's ability to decide.

In other words, nothing about combat overrides the GM's authority to declare success, failure, or uncertainty of an action. This remains true even inside the combat loop. Principled play, by which I mean the GM follows clear principles of play so everyone at the table understands and can anticipate rulings, are critical in a game like D&D. Traditionally, and sadly, nost if not all of these has been rooted in the rules -- either taking a rules as a must and always using it or using a gap in the rule as allowing whatever isn't proscribed, again always. 5e makes this hard because it leans heavily on GM decides as it's core mechanic. This leaves many in a quandry because it doesn't provide a strong principle set via the rules as written. Therefore, people take what rules there are and fashion them into ironclad principle sets, which, if challenged or if a different approach is presented, feel like your principles are under attack. Like how combat rules must be used if hp are involved are justified by the detailed rules, forgetting that thise rules nest inside the broader set where GM's always retain the authority to decide outcome.

To be clear, it's 100% awesome if you always rule anything like combat is uncertain and use the combat rules. That's a very principled approach. It, however, isn't the only one, or best one. The best one is, of course, the one that maximizes fun at your table. So, best for you is as good as it gets. But, using the combat rules is not required by the ruleset of 5e unless the GM determines uncertainty (a generally wise determination), and there are other, equally principled approaches that work.

Finally, I'd like to, as is my wont, to caution against agruments from jerkdom. It seems common to challenge a different approach by postulating a situation caused by jerks, like the above GM having an NPC assassinating a PC by fiat. This may seem to support your argument because this can't happen with your approach, but that's a false appearance. For starters, you've assumed that the other poster is a complete jerk and doesn't have other principles that would prevent the situation from occurring. Second, your method doesn't really prevent a different jerk from breaking it either -- for example you can have a 20th level wizard NPC cast meteor swarm on the same PC from a far distance, and employing the combat rules diesn't change tge outcome. If this immediately raises a "I wouldn't do that, it's a jerk move," defense, then don't postulate jerks on other posters.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It's a collaborative game. If the player wants to sook it up at something so pendantic, he knows where the door is.
Cool! That's a neat approach, and uncommon in D&D! What narrative authorities over the setting, scene, and/or NPC actions do your players get to exercise in this collaborative approach? Do they get to embellish NPC actions like this? What are some of the best moments of how this made play at your table more fun?
 

NotAYakk

Legend
It's a collaborative game. If the player wants to sook it up at something so pendantic, he knows where the door is.
Narrate the world, not the mental states of the PCs. It is the one thing that DMs aren't supposed to dictate. It isn't hard. Just surrender a tiny bit of your ego.

I mean, toughen up. If you can't handle even the tiniest bit of restrictions, go play with yourself.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is where I feel we misapply the rules. Remember the DM is the one that decides whether there is uncertainty in any situation. If a killing blow is struck is it uncertain that it would succeed? If yes, haul out the com bat rules, roll initiative and off we go. If it‘s not? Where’s the confusion? The target is dead.

First, the uncertainty rule only applies to ability checks, though. The rule is written in that section and only used for those checks, not in the combat section. Second, even if the DM house rules the uncertainty rule to apply to strikes in combat, the Assassinate ability does not kill. It just does a crit, which could be 1 additional point of damage. That means that death is uncertain, even if you succeed in using the ability.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No, its not. There is no such thing in 5E.

That's exactly how surprise works. If you are aware of the threat, you are not surprised.

"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter"

As you can see from the bolded sections, awareness or lack thereof is the key to surprise.
 

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