D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[shadowoflameth]

The player not the character rolls initiative. Rolling initiative means that the player is not surprised but that does not mean that his character isn't. Also, rolling high initiative is not rolling high on a perception check to perceive a threat.

 

[Flamestrike]

Do they get to embellish NPC actions like this?

Of course. Heck, I'll award creative narration of a scene with inspiration even.

As long as no fundamentals are changed (the NPC gives me all his stuff!) Im totally fine with it.

 

[Flamestrike]

That said, if I thought the outcome of this wasn't uncertain, then, yup, better grab a new character sheet. The fundamental play loop of the game remains unchanged: it is the GM's authority to decide if player actions declarations succeed, fail, or are uncertain.

He's a 5th level Fighter with 50 odd hit points (who only dies at 0 HP when 50 or more damage remains, or he fails 3 death saves).

The assassin needs to:

1) Hit the Fighter (with advantage most likely) against the Fighters AC. Likely but not certain.
2) Deal enough damage to kill the fighter against those HP, or at least reduce the Fighter to 0 HP in order to finish the job off once he's at 0 HP. Not certain.

The outcome of a hostile action against a PC (or anyone for that matter) is almost never 'certain'. Unless we're dealing with an NPC that can 'auto hit' somehow and 'auto kill' with the amount of damage he deals against the PCs HP, it's not certain. Not even close to certain.

 

[Flamestrike]

The argument being that if they are able to Hide during combat then they can surprise their target. This is just not how I see the design intent of this rule.

That's because that's not the design intent of this rule. Crawford states as much expressly in the video I posted above.

 

[Flamestrike]

In my opinion the case of a single assasin attacking a single completely unaware target from hiding is definitely a situation where following the initiative and surprise rules can give a very counter-intuitive result,

Only if you narrate it that way.

Try narrating it differently, and you get a very intuitive result.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Dice are doubled in a critical, static bonuses aren't.

Seems to me the crux of the issue here is the desire for the Assassin to use their Assassinate on all surprise rounds.

% chance of stealth x % chance of winning initiative x % chance of actually hitting = too small a chance of having fun?

[Edit] Expertise, then Reliable Talent take care of the % chance of stealth. A Dex 16 Assassin 11 with Expertise in Stealth would roll minimum stealth 21. That's automatic surprise v a lot. Stealth gives a good % chance of hitting, so, that's not the problem.

Ah, initiative.

The Rogue-Assassin has no feature that boosts initiative checks unlike the Champion or Barbarian. Dex 20 gives a nice +5, but the spread of the D20 and lots of monsters making the check means you won't always beat them all. In fact even with good Dex you're winning only 60-70% of the time.

So it then comes down to whether the Assassinate damage pay-off equals the relative rarity of pulling it off. Sounds like some players think not.

There is the Alert feat, which gives a +5 to initiative rolls, but that pushes +5 dex to level 10 with point-buy, so it's a half-answer.

The formula you gave is basically the issue with the Assassin: there's too many random failure points for what should be a signature ability.

 

[Flamestrike]

There is the Alert feat, which gives a +5 to initiative rolls, but that pushes +5 dex to level 10 with point-buy, so it's a half-answer.

The formula you gave is basically the issue with the Assassin: there's too many random failure points for what should be a signature ability.

Compare to what the Thief gets at 3rd level.

I mean the Assassin is already getting advantage on the 1st round of every combat against creatures that havent acted yet. Thats pretty awesome on its own.

An autocritting ability? I mean that's gnarly as heck man. It should be hard to pull off.

Personally I just give my assasins 3+ levels of Gloomstalker ranger. +Wis to Initiative, invisibility in Darkness, great spells (pass without trace, hunters mark), darkvision, and extra movement AND attack in the 1st round of combat, that deals extra damage (all likely with advantage and autocritting thanks to Assassin).

Add in Alert, and your Assassin is a killing machine who never goes last.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Only if you narrate it that way.

Try narrating it differently, and you get a very intuitive result.

You can always narrate away rules nonsense, but I prefer not to. It's the wrong way to use narration IMO.

 

[Maxperson]

The player not the character rolls initiative. Rolling initiative means that the player is not surprised but that does not mean that his character isn't. Also, rolling high initiative is not rolling high on a perception check to perceive a threat.

Except that you are specifically rolling to see if the character, not the player, is surprised.

 

[Asisreo]

You can always narrate away rules nonsense, but I prefer not to. It's the wrong way to use narration IMO.

It's not rules nonsense, it's literally using the application of the rules as narrative.

Hit points also describes luck, waking up in the nick of time before an assassin fatally wounds you is lucky, which is drained, represented by your loss in HP.

A critical hit is a direct attack, though. You do get hit, but it wasn't enough to seriously injure you, if it did, you'd be unconscious with 0 hp, because that's what dropping to 0hp means.

You're surprised, so you were unable to do anything else, focusing your full efforts avoiding the deadly strike. If you rolled initiative before the rogue, you were able to move fast enough to have a split-second advanced reaction. If you have the means to use it (shield/parry), then you probably will. If you don't, you aren't disciplined enough in the right spells or martial training in order to take advantage of this split-second. You do use it to keep the rogue from critting you, though.