D&D 5E Reducing High Magic (6th-9th levels) Spell Slots Option

[Asisreo]

I wonder from your responses just how familiar you are with tier 4 play and what those spells can accomplish? My PC would not be very concerned, TBH, because there aren't that many NPCs or creatures out there she is likely to encounter that would defeat her. Worst case scenario, she has to flee to fight another day.

I like designing tier 4 adventures and I think this is one of the biggest mistake a DM makes when creating their world: they don't add enough strong enemies in their universe (not just material plane).

(This reply is an aside btw)

It's easy to always think low fantasy because the more grounded the adventure and encounters, the easier it is to imagine the scope for many. Where high fantasy takes a good bit of thought. If there's so many dragons in the world, why don't they eliminate human civilizations before a knight comes to slay them? If there's so many 10th+ level casters, why don't they just form a coup and conquer the world?

And the answer depends on you, as the DM. But the simplest answer can be the easiest: they are doing exactly what you'd expect, they're just in the middle of it. If a group of spellcaster should be able to conquer your world, make it so that they are planning to. Why haven't they done it yet? Because they need to be organized, make sure there isn't real opposition, be careful around other factions that might have a secret high-level force behind them. This stuff takes time, so while the adventurers are killing goblins to giants, the underground spellcaster organization has been brewing and they're starting to put their biggest plots into action!

There's also the different planes where powerful creatures of high intelligence have already captured their regions and isn't interested in the material plane (yet...). It's quite fun to come up with not just a city or country, but a multiverse where the different planes intersect and the players become a major component of the gods in order to keep the peace between the planes (gives an excuse to give players like martials and whatnot the ability to planeshift with blessings, charms, and boons of planar travel.

 

[Minigiant]

Using Spell Pools is a bad idea.
The main limitation of the 6th-9th spells is that you have few of them total. Allowing casters to sacrifice their lesser slots for higher slots warps the game and encourages the party to macro.

That's why sorcerers can't create slots over 5th level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Using Spell Pools is a bad idea.
The main limitation of the 6th-9th spells is that you have few of them total. Allowing casters to sacrifice their lesser slots for higher slots warps the game and encourages the party to macro.

That's why sorcerers can't create slots over 5th level.

Umm... good thing my suggestion was actually to go the other direction then...

 

[Remathilis]

So.. how does this work with Pact magic/Mystic Arcaneum for Warlocks, @dnd4vr ?

 

[Stalker0]

What do you think of the idea of the extra slots translating into a spell slot "pool" they could draw on for any spell of level 1-5? At 20th level this would be a pool of 28 spell levels, which could be quite a few extra mid-level spells.

From this idea and some of the earlier posts, I am sort of leaning towards the idea that you can only recover one high magic slot per long rest. So, after resting in town for several days, you are full up. But, once you use a slot, you will only get that one back. Use another, and suddenly you are down one likely until the current adventure is over. Use another, and now you are down two, etc.

Ultimately the power curve is dictated by action economy. So more lower level spells are not going to equal the impact of high level ones. That said, adding the flexibility of a spell pool is a new benefit you are giving to casters, which is a nice boon. Effectively your sort of saying, at this for that lower level "mundane magic" don't worry about preparing spells and things, just cast when you need to cast. I don't think it makes up for the loss, but it is a nice benefit that casters would enjoy.

The 1 high slot per long rest I think has merit, its a bit of a hybrid between the per adventure I had and your complete removal of slots.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So.. how does this work with Pact magic/Mystic Arcaneum for Warlocks, @dnd4vr ?

The concept translates easily. Your Mystic Arcanum would allow you access to the greater high magics (6th, then 7th, 8th, and finally 9th), but you would be limited as other full casters in only one per day as you choose. At level 20, you would get your mystic arcanum for 6th in addition to one other of your choice.

I would also consider bumping warlocks up to a maximum of 5 spell slots per short rest instead of just 4. We only allow two short rests per long rest, but the balance of course is their slots are always at 5th level by level 9, which would allow them potentially 15 5th-level spells per long rest (as opposed to the 12 they would currently get).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ultimately the power curve is dictated by action economy. So more lower level spells are not going to equal the impact of high level ones. That said, adding the flexibility of a spell pool is a new benefit you are giving to casters, which is a nice boon. Effectively your sort of saying, at this for that lower level "mundane magic" don't worry about preparing spells and things, just cast when you need to cast. I don't think it makes up for the loss, but it is a nice benefit that casters would enjoy.

The 1 high slot per long rest I think has merit, its a bit of a hybrid between the per adventure I had and your complete removal of slots.

Yeah, I know a 1-1 trade off isn't great, which is why I edited the OP with an option for a 2-1 trade-off (in that you would get up to 5 spells of levels 1-5 each). Instead, I could keep the slots the same as RAW, but allow the pool of up to 28 spell slots, which is where I think versatility would help make up for the lost power nicely. How even of a trade is it? Depends on your point of view. IMO it would be pretty even, but I would rather have more lower level spells than a few uber-spells.

I do like the 1 high magic recovery per long rest. It would be the easiest to employ overall, limit the characters in recoverable power "during the adventure" but allow them to rest-up for the quest ahead in a way.

 

[jayoungr]

We have one with absolutely NO DEX mod, sitting at 19 IIRC, the next is at 21 I think, and I have a 24. All three of use can buff our ACs via Shield, which is used often against foes we think will hit us. For our games we have a house-rule in place that does bump our AC, BUT to counter-balance that we play opponents get the following modifiers for every full 5 points of CR:

+1 to AC
+1 to attack rolls
+1 to all saves
+1 to all skills
+1 to all save DCs for spells and effects.

Those ACs sound super-high to me, especially for spellcasters. What's your houserule? And maybe the opponents should be getting +1 for every 3-4 levels instead of 5, if they're still having trouble hitting?

 

[BlivetWidget]

Those ACs sound super-high to me, especially for spellcasters. What's your houserule? And maybe the opponents should be getting +1 for every 3-4 levels instead of 5, if they're still having trouble hitting?

Agreed. I can only assume copious magic items. I'm assuming wizard class for lack of more info as many of the spells being complained about are wizard spells. Most wizards, even by level 20, rarely exceed an AC of 16 even with Mage Armor. Shield helps of course, but the duration is so short I would definitely not consider it to be part of the static AC the way Mage Armor is.

 

[Helldritch]

Those ACs sound super-high to me, especially for spellcasters. What's your houserule? And maybe the opponents should be getting +1 for every 3-4 levels instead of 5, if they're still having trouble hitting?

Not really. At these levels AC should be above the 20 mark they're pretty reasonable from what I have seen with my two groups.

The minions might have some problems to hit but that should be expected. At these levels, they will rely on traps, bless spells and other shenanigans to have a better chance to hit the players.

The bonus given to their foes is actually quite big. I only give something similar to my solo BBEG and only because both groups are six players strong.

Yep, everything looks fine on that account.