D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[TwoSix]

I like the basic idea, but I would not have it require an Arcana check on casting. An extra dice roll before every spell seems like busywork. What if instead the Preserver can cast spells one level bell their max without defiling, up to 5th level spells. For spells of their max level and all 6th level and higher spells, the preserver has to do the hit die sacrifice to cast without defiling. Then it’s always a choice, but it’s always a very tempting one.

Makes sense. I wanted to emphasize the "risk" aspect of arcane casting, but I do agree it would get to be a lot more dice rolling.

I like that, but I would make it a feature of a Defiler subclass. Everyone defiles by default, but Wizards of the Defiler Arcane Tradition learn to defile actively, weaponizing its destructive nature. Another Defiler class feature could be the ability to sap hit dice directly from opponents to power their spells.

I went back and forth on that, but I really wanted to make the act of arcane casting inherently tempting, even (and especially) to preservers. I'd want all the powerful, easily accessible features to be part of the base class.

That way you know you've gone down the rabbit hole when you prepare a higher level spell just in case.

 

[nevin]

I would say normal magic iscan be done in balance so to speak. every day the mage can gather so much power without harm. the temptation should be there for greedy and the desperate to pull out more power.

if you use it as a disadvantage to the wizard class would be really unfair.
all the casters will be play druids and cleric. or those players you don't want at your table.

 

[Ovinomancer]

A suggestion for this side thread about defilement. Ban Wizards and Bards, leaving only Sorcerers as arcane casters. Make any use of sorcery points cause defilement. Done.

 

[bulletmeat]

I would say normal magic iscan be done in balance so to speak. every day the mage can gather so much power without harm. the temptation should be there for greedy and the desperate to pull out more power.

if you use it as a disadvantage to the wizard class would be really unfair.
all the casters will be play druids and cleric. or those players you don't want at your table.

I know of the 4 groups I have played with in the past 5 or so years, NONE of them would have said yes to penalty for a basic PHB class. I'd get the 'then just run FR'.
That's why I think a subclass or benefits to using defiling are better. They give the option to fall into a trap with greater benefits.
I wonder if the corruption rules from Adventures in Middle-Earth might work here.

 

[nevin]

A suggestion for this side thread about defilement. Ban Wizards and Bards, leaving only Sorcerers as arcane casters. Make any use of sorcery points cause defilement. Done.

who would want to play that? Not me.

I'd just go play Gamma World

 

[Ovinomancer]

who would want to play that? Not me.

I'd just go play Gamma World

Yup, which is why this whole chain of discussion is going to be largely fruitless. Designing new mechanics for defiling is going to have the same issues psionics does -- no one's going to agree.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would say normal magic iscan be done in balance so to speak. every day the mage can gather so much power without harm. the temptation should be there for greedy and the desperate to pull out more power.

if you use it as a disadvantage to the wizard class would be really unfair.
all the casters will be play druids and cleric. or those players you don't want at your table.

No, no, not a disadvantage to the Wizard class. All magic would be harmful to the environment by default (no mechanical effect to this; just any plant life around you dies, moisture dries up, etc. when you cast.) Preserver would be a subclass of Wizard that could voluntarily take a penalty of some kind when they cast to avoid this effect.

The fact that no player would choose to do this is the point. If it didn’t require sacrifice, everyone would do it. It’s supposed to feel thankless, like you’re giving something up to do what’s right, and like it won’t even matter because no one else is going to make that sacrifice anyway. That’s the reality of conservationism.

 

[nevin]

Yup, which is why this whole chain of discussion is going to be largely fruitless. Designing new mechanics for defiling is going to have the same issues psionics does -- no one's going to agree.

especially if changes punish one or more classes and everyone else gets to play them as written.

I don't really understand why everyone thinks you have to change that much.
you treat defiling like dealing with demons. allow preservers to gain 1 or two levels in power if they do it. no higher level spells possibly extra spells.
If I were house ruling it I'd make. a defiler prestige class and if a mage got enough points of corruption (Tracked by me) thier next level would be as a defiler. after say 3 to 5 levels in defiling class that's all they'd be able to take levels in. At a some point they'd start exuding an aura of death and wrongness. at that point it would be an evil act to associate with them. Assuming the party didn't already know what they were doing.

 

[nevin]

No, no, not a disadvantage to the Wizard class. All magic would be harmful to the environment by default (no mechanical effect to this; just any plant life around you dies, moisture dries up, etc. when you cast.) Preserver would be a subclass of Wizard that could voluntarily take a penalty of some kind when they cast to avoid this effect.

The fact that no player would choose to do this is the point. If it didn’t require sacrifice, everyone would do it. It’s supposed to feel thankless, like you’re giving something up to do what’s right, and like it won’t even matter because no one else is going to make that sacrifice anyway. That’s the reality of conservationism.

One of the big things about defilers was that anyone with talent could cast as a preserver. So defiling was a choice to gain, initially, a small bit more power than other mages. The act of doing it at low levels was like burning fields of grass or a tree just because you could. If it's all black and white anyone does it and their wrong you lose a lot of the original flavor of magic.

one of the most fun things for me as a DM was everyone hates mages even preservers who are fighting the good fight. that drove lots of story lines and hooks.

 

[Charlaquin]

especially if changes punish one or more classes and everyone else gets to play them as written.

No one is saying punish any classes. The idea is that you can cast normally, but doing so is harmful to the world around you. There’s no penalty for this; no real drawback except the knowledge that you’re contributing to the world being in the state it’s in (but how bad can it be? everyone else does it, what’s one more spell in the grand scheme of things? The world is already too far gone to save anyway...) But if you want to cast responsibly, that’s an option. You can willingly accept a drawback to do your magic carefully enough not to kill the world just a little bit more. It shouldn’t feel good. It should feel like choosing to bike three hours to work when you have a car and can drive there in 30 minutes.