D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly.
So if there is even one psionic spell on the wizard list, a wizard can write down psionics.

litterally scribbling down Jedi powers and the Man in Yellow at no penalty. That's too much for Minigiant.

Of course the wizard can scribble down Jedi powers...
... Those are not the druids you are looking for... Suggestion
... Lightning out of your hands... Witchbolt?
... Telekinetic grip... Telekinesis
... Jump really high... Jump spell
... General Jedi perceptiveness... Foresight...

So the wizard is actually able to have Jedi powers... And write them down... but they doesn't have the ability to activate them with just a thought... An ability that a level 2 psionic sorcerer will possess.

Even if you later create a full Jedi... Psionic class, you exactly know at what level they will get what kind of powers (spells) they can cast at will and without components.

Or you just make a warlock with mediclorian patron. Pact of the blade will substitute for the light saber. You have easy access to at will jump, charm person mage hand, friendship... And so on.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So far there isn't one example of either, though. No innate normal casters without components use and no innate psionic casters with it.

There are currently no examples of Type 2 or 3 intergalactic civilizations either. Does that mean that there is no purpose in considering the possibility when classifying within that field?

D&D is an exceptions based game, though. You can't walk through walls, except if you have Passwall or incorporeal movement. You can't re-roll dice, except if you are Lucky or another exception. You can't see in the dark, except if you have Darkvision. The game is literally designed around exceptions. There's even a rule for it. Specific Beats General is just another way of saying, exceptions break the rule.

There's no good reason that I can see for psionics to be different than the game itself, unless it's the exception.

The good reason is exactly what I said. Because it was a distinction that did not need to exist. Psionics are not currently special by default. They can be, by also having the rule that they do not require components, but since that is a rule that could apply to any form of magic, it does not make them special.

Whether or not the designers have taken advantage of that fact, does not change that they wrote the rules to leave that door open.

Well, yeah. That's why I'm saying they could be done to balance things out. They also weren't a thing in 3e until the psionic book.


Two things. First, monsters already follow different rules than PCs, so this isn't even a thing to blink at. Second, if you want conformity between monsters and PCs, you can give it to them and just apply the displays to monsters.

Sigh

If a monster has the spellcasting tag, they act just like a spellcaster. Innate Spellcasting is different, so it has its own rules.

By you wanting to make no components an aspect of the rule called "the psionic tag" you want to make it so that one of three things happen.

1) All Psionics, monster and PC have zero indications of casting. No components, no displays, nothing. You have said you do not want this.

2) The Psionic tag means different things in different books. If a players has "Psionics" it works differently and uses different rules than a monster who has "Psionics". No rules currently in the game do this. They do occassional have the same rules under different names, (such as sneak attack and the hobgoblin Martial Advantage) but if a monster has the rule "sneak attack" then it works like sneak attack.

3) All monster will need to be errata'd to conform to the new psionic rules attached to the psionic tag.


None of these options are good. If instead though, the book is left to read as exactly what it says (Psionic as a tag has no special rules for it) then none of those things need to happen.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Lets look at the consequences of "no components" then, shall we?

In this week's game my players encountered a swarm of cranium rats. Who cast Dominate Monster on one of the PCs. Not only did the players not see the spell being cast, so could not counter or attack the caster, even after the PC was dominated and marching off to their doom they still had no idea what the source of effect was. So, rather than try to kill the caster or try to break their concentration, they had no choice but to violently KO the mind controlled player.

Now, that's okay for a monster, but it would be a massive power boost if a PC was able to do the same thing.

So they had to knock out a fellow party member and then investigate what made them act so strange, find out it was a strange hoarde of rats, and then deal with it in a later showdown.

I can see how this massively overpowered attack could ruin an adventure.

And by that I mean I don't see an issue.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So they had to knock out a fellow party member and then investigate what made them act so strange, find out it was a strange hoarde of rats, and then deal with it in a later showdown.

I can see how this massively overpowered attack could ruin an adventure.

And by that I mean I don't see an issue.

I don't want to say that you are wrong on this not being a big deal, but you are also completely missing the point that Paul was making. After all, he says that it is fine for a monster, but it would be far too powerful for a player character.

So, in arguing that this is fine for a monster.... you are not disagreeing with him at all. To make a stupid analogy

Paul: This craft beer is incredibly expensive, can you imagine if a budweiser was this expensive?
You: Well, craft beers do take a lot of work, so they are expensive.

You are just agreeing with his first point.




Also, I can't help but think you are completely wrong that the party would ever find those rats.

It never says how close a swarm has to be to each member, but even if you consider them as needing at least a continous contact, they could still cast through the eyes of a single rat. Meaning they only need to be hiding in the walls, with a single peek-hole.

They are immune to divination and retain their intelligence of 15 for a full day after splitting from the swarm. So, even if tehy were spotted, they simply disappear into various holes and grates, traveling through the walls and meeting back up to reform the swarm at a later moment.

They have no way to detect them, find them or follow them. So, I have no idea how a party is supposed to figure it there even was a strange swarm of rats nearby, and the rats have zero reason to really want to confront the party in a showdown at all.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I don't want to say that you are wrong on this not being a big deal, but you are also completely missing the point that Paul was making. After all, he says that it is fine for a monster, but it would be far too powerful for a player character.

So, in arguing that this is fine for a monster.... you are not disagreeing with him at all. To make a stupid analogy

Paul: This craft beer is incredibly expensive, can you imagine if a budweiser was this expensive?
You: Well, craft beers do take a lot of work, so they are expensive.

You are just agreeing with his first point.




Also, I can't help but think you are completely wrong that the party would ever find those rats.

It never says how close a swarm has to be to each member, but even if you consider them as needing at least a continous contact, they could still cast through the eyes of a single rat. Meaning they only need to be hiding in the walls, with a single peek-hole.

They are immune to divination and retain their intelligence of 15 for a full day after splitting from the swarm. So, even if tehy were spotted, they simply disappear into various holes and grates, traveling through the walls and meeting back up to reform the swarm at a later moment.

They have no way to detect them, find them or follow them. So, I have no idea how a party is supposed to figure it there even was a strange swarm of rats nearby, and the rats have zero reason to really want to confront the party in a showdown at all.

If I was in a game that had a hoarde of cranium rats ninja up on my party completely silently and cast a spell through a peephole, then slink off also 100% stealthily I'd say that's a poorly run game.

It's a hoarde or rats...not something that should go unnoticed by a party of seasoned adventurers. It shouldn't take Sherlock Holmsian powers of deduction to figure out the strangest thing happening at the time that Bob went crazy was a hoarder of rats went running by.

And if you flip the story around and the party psion cast Dominate Person on a guard imperceptively you STILL move the story forward in that now the town knows there is some sort of hidden bewitcher operating in town and all of a sudden the out-of-town wizardry types start getting a little more pressure from the cops.

It's just not a game breaking issue for a class to secretly use a magical power. Sorcerer's can already do it and all I hear is how they are underpowered, not breaking everyone's campaign.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If I was in a game that had a hoarde of cranium rats ninja up on my party completely silently and cast a spell through a peephole, then slink off also 100% stealthily I'd say that's a poorly run game.

It's a hoarde or rats...not something that should go unnoticed by a party of seasoned adventurers. It shouldn't take Sherlock Holmsian powers of deduction to figure out the strangest thing happening at the time that Bob went crazy was a hoarder of rats went running by.

Double checks

Intelligence 15 is generally considered "top of your class" level intelligence. Just below genius level. They also have a wisdom of 11, so at least "average person" levels.

So... why would they ran past the party as a hoard of rats? They could set a trap. They could have one or two scouts following the party. Hearing a single rat in the walls would takr Holmsian levels of deduction to turn into "a swarm of cranium rats", especially if they never saw them.

I'm not saying it would be fair to the party to give them no clues as to what happened to them, or why during the final fight they have to keep making saves to avoid "Command" from the swarm that is hiding under the floor boards, forcing them to grovel or drop their weapons.

But it does 100% fit into what they are, and what they can do. If I am fighting giants who can crush me with a single blow, (ie, I am a rat) I take full advantage of them not being able to reach me. Of my stealth, of the fact they aren't going to pay attention to a single rat in a dungeon, of living with normal stupid rats to hide my presence.

And if you flip the story around and the party psion cast Dominate Person on a guard imperceptively you STILL move the story forward in that now the town knows there is some sort of hidden bewitcher operating in town and all of a sudden the out-of-town wizardry types start getting a little more pressure from the cops.

It's just not a game breaking issue for a class to secretly use a magical power. Sorcerer's can already do it and all I hear is how they are underpowered, not breaking everyone's campaign.

I'm sorry, what out-of-town wizardly type? I could look like anything. I could be anyone.

But, your reference of the Sorcerer really does highlight the problem. Sorcerers can't do this for every single spell. Well, maybe at level 12? I'd have to actually count the number of spell slots. But, they have taken 50% to 25% of their metamagic to do that. And all of their sorcerer points.

The psion under this build... just does it. They just have a constant, free subtle spell on every ability. This is a big boost in power compared to what the sorcerer spent to do the same thing.

 

[Maxperson]

The psion under this build... just does it. They just have a constant, free subtle spell on every ability. This is a big boost in power compared to what the sorcerer spent to do the same thing.

There's nothing wrong or unusual about adding displays to psionics. Just about every class has unique mechanics, so why not psionic classes?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Double checks

Intelligence 15 is generally considered "top of your class" level intelligence. Just below genius level. They also have a wisdom of 11, so at least "average person" levels.

So... why would they ran past the party as a hoard of rats? They could set a trap. They could have one or two scouts following the party. Hearing a single rat in the walls would takr Holmsian levels of deduction to turn into "a swarm of cranium rats", especially if they never saw them.

I'm not saying it would be fair to the party to give them no clues as to what happened to them, or why during the final fight they have to keep making saves to avoid "Command" from the swarm that is hiding under the floor boards, forcing them to grovel or drop their weapons.

But it does 100% fit into what they are, and what they can do. If I am fighting giants who can crush me with a single blow, (ie, I am a rat) I take full advantage of them not being able to reach me. Of my stealth, of the fact they aren't going to pay attention to a single rat in a dungeon, of living with normal stupid rats to hide my presence.




I'm sorry, what out-of-town wizardly type? I could look like anything. I could be anyone.

But, your reference of the Sorcerer really does highlight the problem. Sorcerers can't do this for every single spell. Well, maybe at level 12? I'd have to actually count the number of spell slots. But, they have taken 50% to 25% of their metamagic to do that. And all of their sorcerer points.

The psion under this build... just does it. They just have a constant, free subtle spell on every ability. This is a big boost in power compared to what the sorcerer spent to do the same thing.

It's the same reason the adult red dragon (INT16) doesn't have one tactic when fighting a tough foe of flying by at high speed dragon breathing then exiting the area and waiting for it to recharge and then flying back in and dragon breathing the area over and over until the party is dead.

It's bad encounter design.

As is an impossible to detect monster just attacking the party and running away without giving them a chance to do anything in return.

The bad design has nothing to do with knowing someone cast a spell or not because of components rules.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It's the same reason the adult red dragon (INT16) doesn't have one tactic when fighting a tough foe of flying by at high speed dragon breathing then exiting the area and waiting for it to recharge and then flying back in and dragon breathing the area over and over until the party is dead.

It's bad encounter design.

As is an impossible to detect monster just attacking the party and running away without giving them a chance to do anything in return.

The bad design has nothing to do with knowing someone cast a spell or not because of components rules.

It's bad encounter design to play monsters to their strengths? This implies it's good encounter design to play the monsters stupid and avoid their strengths.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

It's bad encounter design to play monsters to their strengths? This implies it's good encounter design to play the monsters stupid and avoid their strengths.

It's supposed to be a game that's a fun experience for everyone. Would you have fun playing Watchmen RPG when you get to the BBEG at the end of the adventure only for him to tell you he finished his plot a half hour earlier and there wasn't anything you can do to save the world because he was too smart to get caught?