D&D 5E Jeremy Crawford Discusses Details on Custom Origins

[Maxperson]

Oh, sure, but Max was earlier making the claim that Elves, as a graceful race, ought to have a dex bonus.

If a dex bonus can be explained in other ways, the fluff supporting the crunch falls apart. If there is different fluff necessary to explain the same crunch with different races, it blows apart.

It not only does not fall apart, it cements. A particular mechanic can be represented by the same mechanic quite easily. Elves get a +2 dex bonus for their grace. Halflings for their nimbleness. Halflings are not as graceful as Elves, and Elves are not as nimble as Halflings. Both average the same dex level.

My whole point is that the fluff informs the mechanic. Not that multiple races can't have the same level of the mechanic, or that the mechanic cannot come about due to differing fluff.

None of the fluff matters, though, because an Elf can't get a dex above 20. Anyone else that wants it can have a dex of 20.

None of the fluff matters to YOU. It does matter to us.

I am correctly noticing how much space the system gives to attributes and ability checks and how little space the system gives to racial background fluff.

That's because it's a game, so mechanics get the focus to make it playable. Not because mechanics are more important. They can be more important to YOU, but your priorities are yours, not the game's.

 

[ph0rk]

Halflings for their nimbleness. Halflings are not as graceful as Elves, and Elves are not as nimble as Halflings. Both average the same dex level.

Because those are synonyms.

None of the fluff matters to YOU. It does matter to us.

WotC disagrees. The rules are in Adventure League - they're official.

They have altered the system - pray they don't alter it any further.

Really, if you look at all the crunch and fluff from 1e to 5e, this is just more of the same trajectory it has been taking. Race choice has mattered less and less with each new edition. The old editions are still out there to play.

Expect race to matter even less as far as attributes for 6e, whenever that happens. It's over - it won't be coming back.

 

[Oofta]

They can't please everyone. They might as well please the group likely to spend the most money over the next 5-10 years.

So do you have reference to a study of who will spend he most money over the next 5-10 years? Or even a survey of people asking about this change?

Because I don't. Which, I guess is probably one of the things that bother me. Sometimes it feels like the dev team got a memo with DIVERSITY stamped on it [EDIT: apologies if this sounded like a dog whistle, it's not intended that way, just a poor choice of words] in big bold letters and they're just following the corporate dictate sent down from people who do not understand how D&D works to address something that may or may not be an issue. Of course, just like your nonexistent study, I have no clue.

Maybe there's a big groundswell of people who hate that different species of humanoids have different strengths (and seriously, pretty much all non-human races are better than the "standard" human PC) than humans*. Or maybe not. I don't think anyone on this message board has a clue. Until someone finds proof one way or another, all of it is speculation, opinion and preference on all sides.

*By the way I do agree with getting rid of ability score penalties unless they bring it back for everyone

 

[ph0rk]

So do you have reference to a study of who will spend he most money over the next 5-10 years?

I don't, but like many business nearing their 50th anniversary, they have to plan for demographic replacement in their customer base. Eventually, the people that played 1e when it was new will die. Some time before that, they will stop buying books from WotC.

Younger people want different things, or so WotC surmises. I don't think they are wrong about this. look at other companies with similar problems: Harley-Davidson has been faced with the demographic cliff for some time, and came out with products the purists thought were travesties. However, sales were up, and so was interest in the brand.

If Dungeons and Dragons is going to continue in its position as the de-facto king of "tabletop" roleplaying games, it needs to adapt. It has been adapting, all along (attribute modifiers and class restrictions reduced in number markedly from 2e to 3e). This is merely more of the same.

 

[Maxperson]

Because those are synonyms.

Synonyms do not mean the same. They are only similar.

WotC disagrees. The rules are in Adventure League - they're official.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

They have altered the system - pray they don't alter it any further.

Really, if you look at all the crunch and fluff from 1e to 5e, this is just more of the same trajectory it has been taking. Race choice has mattered less and less with each new edition. The old editions are still out there to play.

Yes. I get that they are changing things. My point is that one, they are lying when they say that the PHB is PC only and that stat bonuses are not for the entire race. The game in every edition, including 5e literally says otherwise. And two, that racial bonuses mean something. They do, even if they don't to you personally.

 

[Oofta]

I don't, but like many business nearing their 50th anniversary, they have to plan for demographic replacement in their customer base. Eventually, the people that played 1e when it was new will die. Some time before that, they will stop buying books from WotC.

Younger people want different things, or so WotC surmises. I don't think they are wrong about this. look at other companies with similar problems: Harley-Davidson has been faced with the demographic cliff for some time, and came out with products the purists thought were travesties. However, sales were up, and so was interest in the brand.

If Dungeons and Dragons is going to continue in its position as the de-facto king of "tabletop" roleplaying games, it needs to adapt. It has been adapting, all along (attribute modifiers and class restrictions reduced in number markedly from 2e to 3e). This is merely more of the same.

So where's the study to back that up? Maybe you're right, maybe not. Neither one of us really knows.

What I do know is that 5E is quite popular with people of all ages even before these changes.

 

[ph0rk]

Synonyms do not mean the same. They are only similar.

Fun fact: synonymous and equivalent are synonyms.

My point is that one, they are lying when they say that the PHB is PC only and that stat bonuses are not for the entire race. The game in every edition, including 5e literally says otherwise. And two, that racial bonuses mean something. They do, even if they don't to you personally.

They don't mean much mechanically. And the PHB fluff is placeholder fluff. It's generic, and there really isn't that much of it for the races in the PHB.

But, as far as them lying? It's their fluff. They can change it whenever the heck they want. Elves could all now be descended from Tortles if they felt like it.

If you don't like that, write your own.

So where's the study to back that up? Maybe you're right, maybe not. Neither one of us really knows.

What I do know is that 5E is quite popular with people of all ages even before these changes.

No, if you want to play the burden of proof game, that's on you.

It is clear that WotC thinks this is a good marketing move - because they did it. You might think it isn't, but if I have to choose between random person on the internet and corporate division whose existence somewhat depends on these marketing decisions having better data, I'll pick WotC.

 

[Maxperson]

Fun fact: synonymous and equivalent are synonyms.

Fun fact. They still do not equate to one another and only hold very similar meanings.

They don't mean much mechanically. And the PHB fluff is placeholder fluff. It's generic, and there really isn't that much of it for the races in the PHB.

But, as far as them lying? It's their fluff. They can change it whenever the heck they want. Elves could all now be descended from Tortles if they felt like it.

They didn't change it, though. They didn't come and announce that they were changing fluff. They announced that Up was already Down and used that lie to justify their changed mechanics.

 

[Scott Christian]

If a dex bonus can be explained in other ways, the fluff supporting the crunch falls apart. If there is different fluff necessary to explain the same crunch with different races, it blows apart.

None of the fluff matters, though, because an Elf can't get a dex above 20. Anyone else that wants it can have a dex of 20.

Implied in a capped attribute system is that there are no races with a distribution of $stat with tails that go beyond the tails of other races. They all have a maximum of 20. So, subraces or other cultures or whatever could have attribute bonuses of a different variety.

Why does it fall apart? That makes no sense. An elf meditates to get spells back, a human sleeps. That is fluff, but it matters mechanically as well.
As for the cap, why does that mean anything. You are talking about averages, not the extreme. Comparing the most agile elves (of all sub-races) of all time means little. Comparing the average agility of elves based on what sub-race they are means a lot, because that is what the bonus implies.

 

[ph0rk]

very similar meanings.

Just quoting that for posterity.

They didn't change it, though. They didn't come and announce that they were changing fluff. They announced that Up was already Down and used that lie to justify their changed mechanics.

If this bothers you so much, don't play DnD anymore.

Because changes will happen again.

However: the PHB "fluff" is placeholder fluff at best. The PHB is not a setting book, and if you don't play AL, every rule is optional. You are free to have whatever racial ability modifiers you like in your own games. You already were.

The 5e link between fluff and crunch as far as racial ability modifiers go is thinner than any previous edition. If you like 5e; that's a core part of it. This is merely more of that.

But, if you'd instead prefer to see this as some sort of conspiracy to make you think diversity thoughts - just don't play 5e anymore. You probably are not their target market anymore, anyway.

As for the cap, why does that mean anything.

If the cap being the same for each race isn't an issue, then floating stat bonuses aren't an issue. To argue otherwise means one doesn't grasp the underlying math of bounded accuracy.