Pathfinder 2E Wanting to Change the AP We Started - Advice?

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I honestly don't like Age of Ashes either. There are good elements to it, but the story is not cohesive. It all occurs by happenstance. The motivation for moving forward is weak. It's like some cool adventure elements placed together in a disjointed, haphazard manner. Definitely not Paizo's best AP by quite a margin. I would even say the storytelling for Age of Ashes is kind of bad. I was disappointed. Even the worst Paizo APs aren't usually this disjointed.

If you want a better AP experience, Extinction Curse is way better. Encounters are more balanced. Story ties together much better. Enemies are interesting in my opinion. I haven't seen the main enemies in this module as the focus of an adventure before. Only part I don't like is the Circus theme. Playing a circus performer is not my cup of tea.

You could just make some stuff up if that is what you prefer. DM has to have fun too. If isn't fun for the DM, why is he doing it?
 

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Retreater

Legend
If you want a better AP experience, Extinction Curse is way better. Encounters are more balanced. Story ties together much better. Enemies are interesting in my opinion. I haven't seen the main enemies in this module as the focus of an adventure before. Only part I don't like is the Circus theme. Playing a circus performer is not my cup of tea.
Yeah. I don't dig the circus aspect of that one. And the cop AP is a no-go for several of my players - who actually discussed wanting to play it ironically so they could live out power fantasies of being jerk cops.

Kind of wanting to wait for a more compelling AP or individual adventures and try all of this again later after I recharge.
 

If you want a better AP experience, Extinction Curse is way better. Encounters are more balanced. Story ties together much better. Enemies are interesting in my opinion. I haven't seen the main enemies in this module as the focus of an adventure before. Only part I don't like is the Circus theme. Playing a circus performer is not my cup of tea.
I was turned off this AP by the circus theme as well, which is a bit of a shame because Paizo’s willingness to try new things in their APs is generally a strength.
 

Retreater

Legend
I was turned off this AP by the circus theme as well, which is a bit of a shame because Paizo’s willingness to try new things in their APs is generally a strength.
I've brought it up a few times that I'd have appreciated a "beginner's AP" for their first foray into 2nd edition. Straightforward, classic fantasy feel, maybe focusing on the lower levels, reinforcing the expectations of play. It looks like we're going to start getting just that with the shorter, dungeon crawling spin-off of the Beginner Box (Abomination Vaults AP). I'd have preferred to have seen that early on instead of getting release in Q1 of 2021.
Unlike probably many of their target audience, our group is pretty new to PF in general, so revisiting some of the classic themes of past APs wouldn't have hurt (giants, Gothic horror, pirates). Paizo definitely over-writes their stories, IMO. (I would say that WotC does too. I'd take something like Barrowmaze over Storm King's Thunder, for example.)
 

ruemere

Adventurer
Change the system to less intensive one. Theatre of mind instead of maps.

I am currently running City of Mist while prepping WhiteHack with 13th Age mods.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I was turned off this AP by the circus theme as well, which is a bit of a shame because Paizo’s willingness to try new things in their APs is generally a strength.
I'm glad I decided to give Extinction Curse a run. I had held off due the Circus. My buddies and I wanted to do a side campaign as the main one was having trouble getting everyone together. I've been really pleased with the Extinction Curse AP. I keep the Circus mostly in the background other than as needed. It's been a really fun AP, better than Age of Ashes.

I might try Agents of Edgewatch. Paizo makes a lot of great APs, but they do have some not so fun ones as well. Hard to hit it out of the park every time. I'm going to read the first module and see if it's any good.

I may just wait for the Kingmaker PF2 module. Kingmaker was such an awesome AP. It was the AP that got us into PF. It was so fun. If Retreater gets a chance to do the Kingmaker AP in PF2, he should do that for sure. It's a blast.
 

Philip Benz

A Dragontooth Grognard
Well, I'm a player in Age of Ashes, so have purposefully avoided reading the modules, so can't really comment on specifics. But IMHO you should always modify APs to suit your needs and your players. Why?

1) APs almost invariably have a very strong element of railroading. You expect to go from page 35 to page 36 to page 37, with little margin for variation. That kind of stuff may be fine for some folks, but my players are constantly coming up with crazy ideas that are not covered by the adventure as written - NPCs they want to interact with, locations they want to take a look at, even plot points that they have imagined, but that don't actually exist in the module as written. But who's to say they're wrong? If the PCs are pursuing some alternate location, plot point or NPC interaction, why not simply roll with it?

2) Your players all have unique characters, with their own story that was not envisioned by the writers of the AP. Adapting your story to include elements from your players' backstories, or even inventing backstory-ish elements that you project on your players, helps them reach that happy state of immersion where they feel like the adventure is (at least to some degree) really happening to them. It's not easy to pull off, but when you can do this, it's roleplaying GOLD.

3) I often find that the motivations ascribed to NPCs and even monsters are shallow and lacking in interest. So many seem to be programmed to fight to the death. Sure, maybe it's quicker and easier to write the adventures that way, but it often feels better to me to have adversaries adopt less than optimal tactics. Maybe they take an action or two to realize what's happening. Maybe they waste an action here or there to gloat. Or even monologue. Maybe some of them try to save their skins rather than fighting to the death.

4) As a corollary to 3, I often try to "fudge" combats, especially if I am forewarned that it's super deadly and risks a TPK. I don't fuge die rolls (all my dice are rolled in the open, except for PF2's new concept of secret checks) but I often add in things that change the dynamics of a conflict. For example, if there's a super deadly trap down ahead a ways, maybe a minor adversary from a previous fight will get himself chased down into that trap, activating it instead of the PCs. Or maybe the PCs will encounter a non-hostile NPC who will tag along with the group long enough to become a red shirt, dying in a dramatic way that emphasizes the danger without requiring a PC die instead. Or maybe the bad guys are sleeping on the job, or otherwise distracted from their mission of killing the PCs, like the goblins in RotRL who were busy fighting over pickle jars or torturing seagulls.

All these things enhance a group's experience with a pre-written adventure. I don't see how your players could really complain about you, the DM, stretching your creative muscles to make things more interesting for them. Don't let yourself get locked into the railroad of an AP. Make the story your own by adding and subtracting liberally along the way. The only real risk you run is having the players go completely off the reservation, into non-AP-oriented adventures that you have to make up on the fly, or between sessions. This is good. Go with the flow.
 
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Retreater

Legend
I may just wait for the Kingmaker PF2 module. Kingmaker was such an awesome AP. It was the AP that got us into PF. It was so fun. If Retreater gets a chance to do the Kingmaker AP in PF2, he should do that for sure. It's a blast.
I've run it in PF1 already. While not every player in the group has been through it, those who have would certainly remember.
 

Retreater

Legend
Well, after talking to my group, over half the players don't care to continue with Pathfinder at all. So I guess I'm wrapping up that system and maybe forging ahead with something else? Thanks for all the advice.
 


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