Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Chaosmancer]

It doesn't say that though, nothing in there mentions the Abyss or that this is where those squirming larvae will end up. In fact nothing about these souls mentions anything about whether or not they are evil, only that they are unclaimed by the gods. They could be paragons of virtue but they still suffer the same fate as the so-called evil souls.

You are correct, but we know that soul larva are formed from evil souls in the Abyss, and that Night hags and other fiends collect, trade and devour them.

Since that is the only reference to Soul Larva I am aware of in the game, it seems to be an obvious allusion to that fate.

 

[Seramus]

The problem is that Lathander doesn't want to change it. None of the Gods do. That is the problem.

Why are you taking such an extreme stance?

 

[cbwjm]

You are correct, but we know that soul larva are formed from evil souls in the Abyss, and that Night hags and other fiends collect, trade and devour them.

Since that is the only reference to Soul Larva I am aware of in the game, it seems to be an obvious allusion to that fate.

I think a lot of people wouldn't know that. I also think that you're taking knowledge of the Abyss and soul larvae and projecting it on the statement from the FR afterlife and filling in perceived gaps that aren't there. When it says they are cast down into the dust, there is no reason to think that they end up in the abyss.

Also, even if they did get consigned to the Abyss, that seems a worse fate than the wall.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why are you taking such an extreme stance?

Because it is an inconsistency that rankles me. It is the problem of Evil in DnD form.

And, it is so one-sided. No one seems to have any problem saying the Wall continues to exist because even if the Good Gods wanted to get rid of it (which no evidence exists that they do) the evil gods would stop them. But, when Myrkul, an evil god, created the wall... none of the Good Gods stopped him. They let it happen but now if they try and interfere other forces will stop them?

It is similar to my problem with Sune. She is touted as a Love Goddess, but her dogma is literally that skin-deep beauty if all that matters. That is vanity, not love, and yet she is a good force and supports love in the setting? No, that thematically runs contradictory to everything.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think a lot of people wouldn't know that. I also think that you're taking knowledge of the Abyss and soul larvae and projecting it on the statement from the FR afterlife and filling in perceived gaps that aren't there. When it says they are cast down into the dust, there is no reason to think that they end up in the abyss.

Also, even if they did get consigned to the Abyss, that seems a worse fate than the wall.

Maybe I am projecting, but I know the Abyss exists in FR and that Soul Larva exist in the Abyss in FR. I know that it is a fate reserved for evil individuals, and no god would claim the soul of someone who devoted themselves to one of the Demon Princes.

And, while a worse fate, since it is one earned far more realistically, I am more okay with it.

And, frankly, why do you find my conclusions implausible, knowing that the Abyss exists and that Soul Larva are in the Abyss in the FR cosmology? Since everyone goes through Kelemvor, it would seem to be that he would be the one to send them down to the Abyss, and when they arrive, they are soul larva. Where else do the Soul Larva in the Abyss come from?

 

[cbwjm]

Maybe I am projecting, but I know the Abyss exists in FR and that Soul Larva exist in the Abyss in FR. I know that it is a fate reserved for evil individuals, and no god would claim the soul of someone who devoted themselves to one of the Demon Princes.

And, while a worse fate, since it is one earned far more realistically, I am more okay with it.

And, frankly, why do you find my conclusions implausible, knowing that the Abyss exists and that Soul Larva are in the Abyss in the FR cosmology? Since everyone goes through Kelemvor, it would seem to be that he would be the one to send them down to the Abyss, and when they arrive, they are soul larva. Where else do the Soul Larva in the Abyss come from?

I find it implausible because it doesn't state that. Too many times people try to shoehorn in their own interpretations when I feel like a statement should be taken at face value. If it said they are cast down into the Abyss, then fine that's what happens, but it doesn't so there is no reason to assume that these larvae are doing anything but squirming around in Kelemvor's domain. I'd say no new player who bought the SCAG to read up on FR lore would come to that conclusion but people who have been playing for a while will often fill in the gaps with prior knowledge.

If it was the case that they do get sent to the Abyss, I don't see any real difference between getting consigned to the Abyss and getting consigned to the wall, you're still getting horricially punished for not following a god, in fact the wall might be the better fate.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Amusing that people think that being turned into a wriggling lava to be enslaved and/or eaten by demons is "better" and less "problematic" than the Wall of the Faithless.

Doesn't sound much better to me. (It only happens to "bad guys" though, amirite?"

 

[Zardnaar]

Lava gave faint hope of being turn into something else.

The wall is eventual total oblivion/erased from existence.

 

[Seramus]

Because it is an inconsistency that rankles me. It is the problem of Evil in DnD form.

And, it is so one-sided. No one seems to have any problem saying the Wall continues to exist because even if the Good Gods wanted to get rid of it (which no evidence exists that they do) the evil gods would stop them. But, when Myrkul, an evil god, created the wall... none of the Good Gods stopped him. They let it happen but now if they try and interfere other forces will stop them?

It seems like you are saying all gods in D&D are evil, to one degree or another, for allowing bad things to happen to good people. I suppose that is as valid as any other perspective.

How do you parse alignment being objective in this viewpoint? Ultimately corrupt to the core?

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Lava gave faint hope of being turn into something else.

The wall is eventual total oblivion/erased from existence.

pretty faint - the last I heard you got put into a coin to power demonic motorcycles. Not how i picture my afterlife.