D&D 5E TCoE Monk buffs and Way of the Four Elements

[FrogReaver]

Has anyone done the math and figured out if the ability to make a bonus action attack when spending ki for your Four Elements features is enough to mechanically fix the weakness of the subclass?

In previous discussions a case was made that simply allowing the Four Elements features to be activated as a bonus action (so you could also make 2 attacks from 5th level up) would mechanically balance it. If that claim were true, it would seem that this weaker feature where you are only getting one attack with your Four Elements feature wouldn’t quite get the job done.

2 monk attacks at level 5 will do something like 2d6+8 damage = 15 * 60% = 9 DPR (Requires 1 KI)
A monk using burning hands at that level will do about 8.4 DPR per enemy. (Requires 2 KI)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Eeeeh ... I'd rather they just get some worthwhile class abilities ontop of their additional spells known.

I think the thing is, for it to be a fix, rather than a new subclass on a similar theme, of which we already have several, any change has to be limited and simple.

 

[Neonchameleon]

2 monk attacks at level 5 will do something like 2d6+8 damage = 15 * 60% = 9 DPR (Requires 1 KI)
A monk using burning hands at that level will do about 8.4 DPR per enemy. (Requires 2 KI)

Or the alternate way of looking things is that the Sun Soul monk can already cast Burning Hands as a bonus action for 2 Ki points via their 6th level ability. No one's complaining that the Sun Soul monk is OP.

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that as well as being able to cast Burning Hands as a minor action for the same cost a Four Elements Monk can as a standard action the Sun Soul monk at level 11 gets a version of Fireball that does radiant damage, can be cast at 2d6 for 0 ki up to 8d6 for 3 ki. Meanwhile the elemental monk needs to use their level 11 ability to get fireball - and it costs 4 ki points for 8d6 and does fire damage (although they can boost it to 10d6 for 6 ki points by level 20). Again the Sun Soul monk isn't considered too strong by anyone I'm aware of.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As pointed out, it doesn't matter, because you already got a bonus action attack from using stunning strike, or any ability that involves making an attack.

But it is a difference if yourbonus attack is unarmed or from a possibly magic weapon.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But it is a difference if yourbonus attack is unarmed or from a possibly magic weapon.

Personally, I would allow the monk to use their monk weapon irrespective of how the bonus action was triggered. But to try and suggest that a stun attempt made during you action is not "part of your action" seems like ridiculous hair-splitting to me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Personally, I would allow the monk to use their monk weapon irrespective of how the bonus action was triggered. But to try and suggest that a stun attempt made during you action is not "part of your action" seems like ridiculous hair-splitting to me.

So you seem to agree with me.
I personally also don't mind if you always attack with your weapon on your normal offhand attack or flurry. On the other hand, I might still limit it to martial arts die damage if you do so. Why? Because at verx low levels double or tripple quarterstaff is a bit much. But if you get aome magic weapon I think you should get the bonus for all your attacks.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think one of the main problems of the class is running against the expectation that Monks should always get to do something with their bonus action, because they always get an attack with it after the attack action and have various disengaging or dodging or what have you which they can do with Ki. The Four Elements Monk, meanwhile, would lay down a Ki based spell and then find that they would have to either waste their bonus action or spend more Ki. Not being able to make use of a bonus action sometimes is par for the course for some classes, but for a Monk it's strange and makes you feel like you are wasting your turn. Or you burn Ki on dodging, etc. just to feel like you are using your turn and then end with no Ki left, and this subclass gives you basically nothing when you are out of Ki.

I don't really much care about the number crunch, because I don't think the problems with the subclass were ever really with the number crunch as much as they were an issue of it being frustrating to players. Tasha's has done away with the wasted bonus action problem by ensuring that you can still make an attack. This does a lot to make the subclass less frustrating.

There is still the problem that once all the Ki is used up the subclass features boil down to having access to a prestidigitation-like pseudo-cantrip whereas other Monk subclasses continue to have more tangible benefits. It seems like the obvious fix is to introduce a few more elementary disciplines to chose that grant non-ki-powered abilities or passive benefits. Honestly they could just rewrite some Warlock invocations and call it good.

 

[Ancalagon]

To clarify - it's new ways to spend the points they already had at a time they'd already spend them. The Way of Shadow monk gets new ways to spend Ki points through spellcasting, but the spellcasting from the Way of Shadow is on its own worth more than the entire Four Element schtick.

This is because the Way of Elements abilities are almost all combat evocations. Monks, with flurries and stunning fists are not short of ways to spend Ki for combat power meaning that it competes with class abilities. By contrast the Way of Shadow gives you four spells, of which Darkvision and Pass Without Trace spring to mind. Those are both long term non-combat spells that may compete for ki points (or may not if you have resting time) but there's basically no time at which you're uncertain whether in this instant it's better to cast Pass Without Trace or punch someone in the head while a flurry vs Burning Hands is much more competition.

And, the thing to note, is that evocation is a shadow of its former self. In 2nd ed, an ogre had 19 hp. In 5e he has 59? 61?. But fireball went from 5-10 d6 to a fixed 8d6... and that's one of the best evocation spells!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The way of four elements Monk still has a huge weakness that few point out: it's class features are all just new ways to spend the points they already had.

Many subclasses get additional spells known as part of their subclass, and they still get other features ontop of that. The way of Four Elements Monk, though, just gets 8 spells as their feature. They have to spend their ki on those spells, which other monks are using on their flurry or other features. Other monks get a few features that cost ki, but they're usually low priced for what they do (like sun soul Monk gets a bonus action burning hands, and shadow monks gets a few spells that are cheaper than the spell point equivalent of ki).

The Way of Four Elements monk needs some of its own class features. Variable energy resistance. Elemental damage when they flurry. Bonus action attacks when they use cantrips (give them cantrips so they have some basic ranged attacks).

Yep. It’d help if they cost 1 ki per spell level, and had some at Will stuff, and more known disciplines.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So you seem to agree with me.

I think so, and reading back, it looks like the person suggesting stunning strike was invalid was unaware of the word "part" in the full text of the ability.