A Question Of Agency?

[Aldarc]

So what have I misunderstood? Do Monster Hearts mechanics impose a feeling on character that the player is expected to roleplay? Yes or no?

It is perfectly possible that I misunderstand things, and if I do, it is fair to point out specific mistake I may have made. However, this is not what you're doing here.

I'm not here to make your argument for you. I hand fed you once, but you are an adult now. You are more than welcome to read Monsterhearts 2 for yourself and make your own judgment and argument from the text.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm not here to make your argument for you. I hand fed you once, but you are an adult now. You are more than welcome to read Monsterhearts 2 for yourself and make your own judgment and argument from the text.

Right. So you have no actual argument and are just engaging in credentials fallacy.

 

[Aldarc]

Right. So you have no actual argument and are just engaging in credentials fallacy.

I'm sorry, was asking you to cite and explain how the mechanic works in these games you are arguing against too hard of a task for you in a conversation about these games and mechanics?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm sorry, was asking you to cite and explain how the mechanic works in these games you are arguing against too hard of a task for you in a conversation about these games and mechanics?

I have read it, I am not going to search the quote for you. Was my summation of the effects of the mechanic correct or not? If not. then in which way? If you have an issue with the content of my argument, then present it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

An actual example of somewhat annoying personality mechanic that I have experienced in practice: Exalted virtue mechanic. If you have at least three point in a virtue (in 1 to 5 scale, so moderate) you need to roll it in certain pretty common situations to act in a certain way. For example:

Characters Must Fail a Valor Roll to: Turn down
a duel of honor or a call to single combat. Flee a battle.
Receive an insult without seeking retribution. Turn down
a dare or challenge.

Now you can overcome this by burning willpower point, but those are a precious resource and are used for other things in the game too, most importantly to refuse conditions imposed on you in the game's social combat mechanic (and this is not even getting to any supernatural effects.)

The result is that in dramatic situations the character's actions are often not chosen by the player. The virtue may compel them to act in a certain way, or an NPC can just 'mind control' them via superior social skills. If you don't want this to happen you need to hoard your willpower points (and they're used for other things than just to resist these compulsions) and even then if the situations come up often enough you can just run out. I did not find this mechanic fun and I was hardly alone in this. We ended up seriously house ruling these rules.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, but there is also a difference of medium. How one might play a character will likely differ in a theatrical stage production than in an improv comedy troupe than in a serialized television drama. Likewise, if you are a super serious thespian (top in your class at Julliard and M.A. at the Yale School of Fine Arts) going into a fantasy elf game for kids knowing how certain mechanics will work and operate in play, then your roleplay should likely account for the possibility that these internal states are subject to change in response to dice resolution, and I expect that an accomplished method actor would be able to adapt accordingly. It requires setting your expectations and adapting accordingly.

I also recall a lovely story about Jason Alexander on the set of Seinfeld. He was reading his part in the script for George Costanza, and it found it absolutely incredulous that anyone, let alone George Costanza would realistically do what transpired in that week's script. It was too crazy. "No human being would do this." So he went to head writer Larry David to complain. He said, "Who in their right mind would tell their boss that they quit and then show up to work for several weeks pretending that they never quit?! No one would react like this." Then Larry David replied, "What are you talking about? This is exactly what I did at SNL with Lorne Michaels." That was a watershed moment for Jason Alexander, who had previously been playing George Costanza more like Woody Allen. That's when he realized that his understanding of the character was wrong: George Costanza was Larry David. This was essentially the character correcting the actor.





Analyze it? Excuse me? When people pressed you for citations about any of the mechanics you and @Crimson Longinus were foaming at the mouth about, I felt guilty because I was the one who introduced Monsterhearts into the discussion. So I lobbed you two a slow softball and copy-pasted the "Turn Someone On" Move from Monsterhearts 2. No scratch that. I set up the tee-ball for you to hit at your leisure. You didn't even have to look through these games to make your citations. The bare minimum you and @Crimson Longinus had to do was engage the provided text and maybe use it support your argument.

But would you like to know something that surprises absolutely no who has been discussing this with you? Neither of you engaged the mechanics or wording of the Move that I provided for you! A drive-by post 'like' was it! It was there for easy pickings without you having to do any work for it. Yet you didn't demonstrate any actual evidence of having read it. In the 20+ pages since then, you haven't quoted it, mentioned it, or used it to illustrate a single point. Even now, you are struggling to name a possible applicable game when pressed, and even then you can't actually explain how the mechanic works. You are regurgitating hearsay in Satanic Panic fashion. Sorry, but you don't get credit for "analyzing" anything after that. Y'all don't even get an "F" for "Effort." Just a big, fat ZERO.

A reference to something doesn’t have to be explicit. I have referred to mechanics that force my character to do something numerous times. We all know that’s one of the examples of such mechanics. Why feign ignorance of this?

 

[darkbard]

A reference to something doesn’t have to be explicit.

Actually, yes it does. Otherwise it's an implication.

 

[FrogReaver]

Actually, yes it does. Otherwise it's an implication.

LOL

 

[FrogReaver]

It is not like these mechanics are complex. It imposes certain feeling on the player character and expects the player to roleplay it.

This is like me telling you that I don't like banana and you insisting that I have not properly analysed and understood the recipe of your exquisite banana smoothie and thus I must be wrong. That's really the trend in this thread.

So how does combat get resolved then?

0. Roll initiative.
1. wait for your turn.
2. when it is your turn choose an action.
2b. Roll dice as directed in the rules depending on your action.
3. Repeat steps 1-3 until the combat is over. (Typically the enemy dies, retreats, or is captured)

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver

Advice that you're perfectly free to ignore.

There is an SRD for Blades in the Dark, and it's free to read. IIRC, it's a web interface so you can't download it, but you can read it. I think if you really want to understand the game that's going to be a necessary step.

Heck, if you're interested, you can find Apocalypse World (I think it's an earlier edition) free online, as well, and there's a starter book for Burning Wheel that is also free, to pick games that get talked about in these sort of threads.

I don't particularly care for Blades or AW, but those opinions genuinely arose after reading the games. Conversations like the one you're having with @Ovinomancer (who is frankly being waay more patient than I would probably be) would, I think, go a lot more easily for all concerned if you've at least seen the rules.

Thank you but it’s not necessary and wouldn’t suffice then anyways. This thread is about analysis of rpgs and rpg play. Examples and mechanics were cited and analysis made. I countered that Analysis with my own using the same mechanics and examples provided.

One doesn’t need to be intimately familiar with the whole game to counter analyze an example and mechanic listed by someone who is.