D&D General The DM is Not a Player; and Hot Topic is Not Punk Rock

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Semantics.

You say that as if it is works as a dismissal.

"Semantics" is the study of meaning. If this is "semantics", it is a disagreement over the meaning of the passage, which seems like something you can't just dismiss and still hold a viable position on.

Fairness does not equate to neutrality. Sometimes, do be fair, you have to be decidedly not neutral.
Specifically, in the typical table game, "the monsters" are there by the GM's will in the first place. The GM is, in effect, judge, jury, and executioner, and exultations that they be neutral between themselves and the players makes little sense, given the imbalance in the situation.

That's why they need to be fair - because neutrality allows imbalance to persist, rather than correct for it.
 

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G

Guest User

Guest
But the DM's neutrality is the most important rule!
Others have made cogent and excellent cases for why Fairness and Neutrality are not synonymous in a D&D context. There is no need to reprise those arguments.

I just want to point out the tone of the quote used by Jack Daniel is very different from the Unitary Executive DM role envisioned by the O.P.

The players are meant to explore and gain XP.
The DM is explicitly intended to be entertaining the players, and house rules are subject to a democratic vote by the participants of the game.

Very different than the great and ALL powerful 'neutral' Ultimate Arbiter, premised as the Ideal DM.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Others have made cogent and excellent cases for why Fairness and Neutrality are not synonymous in a D&D context. There is no need to reprise those arguments.

I just want to point out the tone of the quote used by Jack Daniel is very different from the Unitary Executive DM role envisioned by the O.P.

The players are meant to explore and gain XP.
The DM is explicitly intended to be entertaining the players, and house rules are subject to a democratic vote by the participants of the game.

Very different than the great and ALL powerful 'neutral' Ultimate Arbiter, premised as the Ideal DM.
Vote? A DM should listen to all views, and then decide.
 


Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
Not at all. I clearly articulated the relevant difference between being fair and being neutral.
What you've articulated is, in the context of playing D&D, a distinction without a difference. The end result is the same, whether you choose to term it "fairness" or "neutrality" or "impartiality": the referee is neither the players' fan nor their enemy. That's the upshot here.

Specifically, in the typical table game, "the monsters" are there by the GM's will in the first place. The GM is, in effect, judge, jury, and executioner, and exultations that they be neutral between themselves and the players makes little sense, given the imbalance in the situation.
Depends. If the GM is rolling wandering monster checks out in the open, rolling on the encounter tables and rolling for the number of monsters appearing, plainly out where everyone can see, are the monsters really appearing "by the GM's will" in any meaningful sense? When the GM makes a reaction roll or a morale check for the monsters, can it really be said that the GM will "comprise all possible thought and decision" for the monsters? I very much doubt it.

And if the GM has set themselves up not as "the opposition" to the players but as merely a referee for the game's rules and a maintainer of the fantasy milieu (the one "running the simulation," to use a very crude analogy that I don't like at all), it makes no sense whatsoever to compare the GM being neutral between PCs and NPCs/monsters to the GM being neutral between "themselves and the players." The GM is not the NPCs/monsters, and they are not merely some "aspect" or "avatar" of the GM.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Depends. If the GM is rolling wandering monster checks out in the open, rolling on the encounter tables and rolling for the number of monsters appearing, plainly out where everyone can see, are the monsters really appearing "by the GM's will" in any meaningful sense? When the GM makes a reaction roll or a morale check for the monsters, can it really be said that the GM will "comprise all possible thought and decision" for the monsters? I very much doubt it.
The GM, I had thought, always has the choice as to whether they use these things or not. They don't just blindly invoke them like a computer would. If a reaction roll doesn't make sense despite the rules calling for them, the GM can negate that. And, likewise, if a situation arises where the GM feels a reaction roll should happen even though the rules don't officially call for one, she can enforce that. I don't feel any differently about random monster rolls, and none of that would say much of anything about either the fact that the monsters literally can't exist or act without the GM's direct participation--as is the case with all parts of the world that aren't the PCs.

Unless you mean to say that old-school rules somehow prevent the GM from using them as they see fit? That would certainly be a surprising reversal compared to the statements made pretty much everywhere else by everyone else that favors such things.

And if the GM has set themselves up not as "the opposition" to the players but as merely a referee for the game's rules and a maintainer of the fantasy milieu (the one "running the simulation," to use a very crude analogy that I don't like at all), it makes no sense whatsoever to compare the GM being neutral between PCs and NPCs/monsters to the GM being neutral between "themselves and the players." The GM is not the NPCs/monsters, and they are not merely some "aspect" or "avatar" of the GM.
First: If you don't like the analogy at all, why use it? It would seem very much to mean several things you don't want it to mean.

More importantly, I don't see how "it makes no sense whatsoever." Everything that is run by the GM--meaning, everything, more or less, except the PCs--exists by and for the GM's interests. They cannot be neutral with regard to things that their active and continuous assent and participation are required for. They are, very simply, involved.

That doesn't make them the opposition personally. I would say exactly the same thing regarding a game where the GM never participated directly in combat at all--where all opposition were different groups of player characters fighting one another. The GM is still involved because the world--terrain, visibility, supply lines, weather, and adjudication of both edge cases and unexpected deviations from standard procedures--needs the GM's constant, active involvement, and these things directly impact both sides. They aren't staying out of the conflict; they're facilitating it, ensuring that it works out in a way preferable to them (namely, one fun for everyone involved). Even your example GM is nowhere near as "neutral" a party as an arbitrator or judge, and certainly not anything like a country trying to avoid participation in a war.

"Neutral" means non-participation: literally, not taking part. That's literally part of the definition of the word. "Unbiased" means you don't treat any participant with favoritism.
 



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