Pathfinder 2E multi-action spells

[dave2008]

Also went with the "Your damage die is your initiative die" because it did better at incentivizing light weapons, but also killed Dexterity's dominance in initiative.

That is an interesting idea I haven't heard before. I may give that a try.

 

[CapnZapp]

Smaller weapons being faster is a worthwhile variant... In a game where acting first really makes a difference.

In PF2 monsters have so many hit points that it simply isn't worth it to stick to light weapons. The way critical work further favor heavy weapons - dealing half damage a bit faster is never worth it.

There are builds meant for them of course. I'm not saying light weapons are unusable. What I am saying is that the variant won't change anything - the advantage of going first isn't great enough in PF2. Light weapon warriors will use light weapons, heavy weapon users will keep using heavy weapons.

The purpose of the variant is to encourage warriors to go for slightly lighter weapons. That is for a given build to change it's choice of weapon (size). For that to happen initiative needs to matter more, such as if hp totals were lower (so d4 weapons could hope to finish the fight before it started) or if the surprise round were reinstated, or if a light weapon could do more attacks than a heavy one, for instance.

What the variant will instead accomplish, is favor some build over others, which isn't the same thing and arguably much less worthwhile.

 

[nevin]

If you like weird and fiddly you're gonna love PF2

no. Pathfinder takes all the fiddly stuff and makes it boring. Because of another thread i recently went back and reread a lot of the 1st edition rules. I was very shocked to realize that I think 1st edition, (if you follow the rules) was more balanced than any edition since.

Classes leveled at different rates. Powerful classes leveled slower.

Mages were freaking powerful, but they had almost no hitpoints, any damage interrupted a spell and it was lost forever, spells took a looooong time to memorize. You'd never get there but it would take a 20th level mage days to memorize all his spells. spell segments meant some spells took rounds to cast. (with the chance to interrupted with any damage)

Paladins once they got a holy sword had a 50percent magic resistance to every magic of thier level that scaled up or down by 5% per level difference.
Rangers and thieves were really good at getting surprise and on a perfect surprise round you could get up to 3 full combat rounds of attacks on an enemy.
things like stoneskin lost charges if you got hit with a pebble, or slapped by a woman you offended.

It was assumed that by 10th level, fighters would have keeps , or armies and followers, that thieves and Assassains would have guilds to call upon, that Clerical Orders would march at the request of a high level cleric. So yeah Mages were powerful but so was everyone else. The game assumed you'd gain power in your area with level.

Every edition since has either made the game more boring and tried to achieve balance or made the game more unbalanced trying to get the fun back.


All the fiddly stuff in pathfinder is tactical. It's like playing a board game with a little bit of roleplaying tacked on.

All the fiddly stuff in 1st edition was the stuff you did while roleplaying and they tacked chainmail rules there for you if you wanted a little more tactical feel.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That is an interesting idea I haven't heard before. I may give that a try.

Here's a link.

It makes for an interesting game. The entire idea by Mearls was to randomize each turn while forcing people to decide before their turn what to do. I think he outlines the scenario of someone making a break for a door, and how it's always basically decided in the regular initiative decision, and he wanted to put tension into things.

It's got a solid basis for an initiative system, but again run into big problems (it really doesn't jive with the Bonus Action economy, where quick classes who are supposed to be able to do more are slowed down by having extra bonus actions) and small problems (Certain classes have features that don't quite work with the damage die mechanic). I believe Mearls had generic dice for attack actions based on the type (with ranged being quicker, which... eh, Dex Attacks already have enough of an advantage), but suggested doing the damage die thing. I can't find my full modifications for it, sadly (Must have gotten deleted or lost in a transfer to my new computers), but they aren't hard and if you want them I can probably write them up.

Smaller weapons being faster is a worthwhile variant... In a game where acting first really makes a difference.

In PF2 monsters have so many hit points that it simply isn't worth it to stick to light weapons. The way critical work further favor heavy weapons - dealing half damage a bit faster is never worth it.

There are builds meant for them of course. I'm not saying light weapons are unusable. What I am saying is that the variant won't change anything - the advantage of going first isn't great enough in PF2. Light weapon warriors will use light weapons, heavy weapon users will keep using heavy weapons.

The purpose of the variant is to encourage warriors to go for slightly lighter weapons. That is for a given build to change it's choice of weapon (size). For that to happen initiative needs to matter more, such as if hp totals were lower (so d4 weapons could hope to finish the fight before it started) or if the surprise round were reinstated, or if a light weapon could do more attacks than a heavy one, for instance.

What the variant will instead accomplish, is favor some build over others, which isn't the same thing and arguably much less worthwhile.

I was talking in 5E, but I'd say PF2 gives more reason to use light weapons than 5E.

1. Finesse is available on more small weapons in PF2, giving you more options. Might be a function of having more weapons in general, but things like the Light Mace have it, which gives a reason for having it.
2. Agile, which allows for more attacks.
3. Feats that can upgrade simple weapons, like Deadly Simplicity, which make what would be lesser deity weapons more viable.

5E does have dual-wielding as a bigger thing, but that's also more situational. Using a single light weapon is much more viable for PF2.

 

[dave2008]

Here's a link.

It makes for an interesting game. The entire idea by Mearls was to randomize each turn while forcing people to decide before their turn what to do. I think he outlines the scenario of someone making a break for a door, and how it's always basically decided in the regular initiative decision, and he wanted to put tension into things.

To be clear, I was talking about your idea of using weapon damage die for initiative.

 

[nevin]

I wonder if you could make using light weapons work by tieing the damage dice for light weapons to level and Dexterity.
If a rogue with a dex of 18 had say 2 or 3 die 4 (or 6) they'd be using those light weapons. It would thematically match the fights you read in books or see in movies where the knife wielding character takes out people with bigger weapons because of thier skill.

 

[Justice and Rule]

To be clear, I was talking about your idea of using weapon damage die for initiative.

Ah fair, though I think the whole system is honestly quite interesting.

I wonder if you could make using light weapons work by tieing the damage dice for light weapons to level and Dexterity.
If a rogue with a dex of 18 had say 2 or 3 die 4 (or 6) they'd be using those light weapons. It would thematically match the fights you read in books or see in movies where the knife wielding character takes out people with bigger weapons because of thier skill.

I think it'd be better to take Dex out of the equation because it gets to be such a God-stat; it's one of the reasons I really was interested in that system. You'd be better off giving classes like Rogue and Monk the ability to shrink a die or something to indicate their natural quickness. But in a system that largely prides itself on having its weapons interchangeable, it does give some value to the stuff that is lighter but less deadly.

 

[CapnZapp]

I wonder if you could make using light weapons work by tieing the damage dice for light weapons to level and Dexterity.
If a rogue with a dex of 18 had say 2 or 3 die 4 (or 6) they'd be using those light weapons. It would thematically match the fights you read in books or see in movies where the knife wielding character takes out people with bigger weapons because of thier skill.

Again, in a system where initiative, surprise and stealth were allowed to significantly impact combats, this could be worthwhile.