D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[Gammadoodler]

This is wrong. The DM can observe the rules and abilities that imply the world physics.

Sure. These would be the same rules where Centaurs can climb..with difficulty, yes?

What are we arguing over again?

(Btw, the worst part of all of this is having to defend freaking centaurs, which I personally also find ridiculous)

 

[Scott Christian]

All of these examples are false equivalents. In each of them, there is some expected combined 'imagining' of observable circumstance (and in most of the examples, where there are objectively true or untrue solutions).

These just aren't the same as a DM and player trying to imagine how the DM's world works. There's no right answer and no opportunity to observe.

Better examples would come from creative fields.

Is it a reader's problem to solve it the author can't imagine a scene?

Or a listener's problem if a songwriter just can't figure out how to pick up after the bridge?

Sure, but change reader to editor. Change listener to producer. Still the creative field. But I suppose, since that one word is changed, they are now "false equivalencies."

The point is those creative fields still need to collaborate. Just like a D&D table. It is the DM's problem if he can't imagine the scene. It is also the player's. It is the DM's problem if he can't piece together a story. It is also the players.

Which is the exact point I made with my examples.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure. These would be the same rules where Centaurs can climb..with difficulty, yes?

What are we arguing over again?

(Btw, the worst part of all of this is having to defend freaking centaurs, which I personally also find ridiculous)

And the same rules that say there are physics that would apply to Centaurs. So we have a more realistic set of rules implying that Centaurs cannot climb, and we have a ridiculous rule that exists for "balance" reasons. Both are in opposition, so the DM needs to rule one way or the other.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Sure, but change reader to editor. Change listener to producer. Still the creative field. But I suppose, since that one word is changed, they are now "false equivalencies."

The point is those creative fields still need to collaborate. Just like a D&D table. It is the DM's problem if he can't imagine the scene. It is also the player's. It is the DM's problem if he can't piece together a story. It is also the players.

Which is the exact point I made with my examples.

You realize you're making the contention now that players are collaborators in how the DM builds their worlds, right?

Which would include which races should exist, where you've previously argued that the DMs rule is absolute.

So I'm confused now, how do you actually see this relationship?

I see it as generator of creative content, and (mostly) consumer of creative content, which I believe is how you've also described the relationship in some of your discussions with @Chaosmancer .

 

[Scott Christian]

No. That is not what the rules say. The rules only allow them to carry, push or drag as a large creature, not lift. Pushing and dragging apply to things beyond what you can carry, not yourself. You cannot use that rule to lift yourself up by your human arms. Especially when you consider that they would need all four legs to be able to push or drag effectively.

Since we all like to horse around, I am going to point out Max's stable argument here.

 

[Gammadoodler]

And the same rules that say there are physics that would apply to Centaurs. So we have a more realistic set of rules implying that Centaurs cannot climb, and we have a ridiculous rule that exists for "balance" reasons. Both are in opposition, so the DM needs to rule one way or the other.

I believe you left a few IMHOs out in there.

Edit: Also this strange notion of overruling explicitly defined racial characteristics based on implicit but undefined physical laws is amusing. Shall we plan a full audit of all races' characteristics on this basis? We can get to the monster manual next.

 

[Oofta]

You said you were done man.

Ok, I'm going to make a new rule for myself after this.

Until it appears that you are actually reading any of my posts that you're replying to, I'm just not gonna respond.

But I'm pretty sure you're fine with that, as it doesn't appear that you are much interested in dialogue anyway.

Not sure what you want me to say as part of a "dialogue". I fundamentally disagree with this statement:

These just aren't the same as a DM and player trying to imagine how the DM's world works. There's no right answer and no opportunity to observe.

There is a right answer. The DM's answer. It's a rule that is explicitly spelled out repeatedly; the DM is the final arbiter of the rules of the game.

 

[Maxperson]

I believe you left a few IMHOs out in there.

Probably because it's fact, not opinion that the rules imply physics which would apply to centaurs. How exactly they apply would be subject to DM opinion.

Shall we plan a full audit of all races' characteristics on this basis?

Find some that don't have in-fiction explanations for them and sure. I'm all for changing things that don't make sense into things that do.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Probably because it's fact, not opinion that the rules imply physics which would apply to centaurs. How exactly they apply would be subject to DM opinion.

Find some that don't have in-fiction explanations for them and sure. I'm all for changing things that don't make sense into things that do.

For the record, the IMHOs would go before "more realistic rule" and "ridiculous rule" (at least..there may be a few more places)

What standard of fiction should I use? what is the 'authoritative' literature? Wanna make sure we get this right so no one can argue what these races can and can't do anymore.

 

[Scott Christian]

You realize you're making the contention now that players are collaborators in how the DM builds their worlds, right?

Which would include which races should exist, where you've previously argued that the DMs rule is absolute.

So I'm confused now, how do you actually see this relationship?

I see it as generator of creative content, and (mostly) consumer of creative content, which I believe is how you've also described the relationship in some of your discussions with @Chaosmancer .

?
No, I am not making any such assertion. How does: A DM and players at the same table need to have the same parameters (races, physics, classes, magic, etc.) morph into - the players get to choose the races? The two are not anywhere close. The DM sets the parameters. That is what they do. That is what it says to do in the DMG and PHB (and Xanathar's and Tasha's). They work with the players if there is a problem.

Having everyone on the same page does not mean everyone has input. (Although I am for player input. I just do not think it trumps the DM's, especially in a curated world.)

Again, all my examples show people being on the same page - not everyone having equal input.