A Question Of Agency?

[Maxperson]

No there are plenty of sentences on both sides showing more agency in each. We are just not persuading each other. Look, I am not going to sit here and discount all the posts on the other side. Some great posts have been made. Doesn't mean I agree with them, but I recognize a strong argument when I see it. But great posts have been made on this side as well. Plenty of people have explained why there is more freedom in a sandbox. You might not find those arguments persuasive because you take a different view, but those arguments have been made, and they have been made well.

In my opinion that's because there isn't more agency in either one. They are completely different playstyles. It's apples and oranges. Rather than more agency in one style or the other, it's that they have different agency.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This about freeform narration. This is about the player says they want to do A then B, so that the opponent gets crushed by Y as they strike (some kind of involved and specific combat action, that is still within the fair parameters of action in a given moment), and the GM, because there is a vacuum around the rules on the declared action, customizes a way of managing it in that moment.

Except there is very seldom a complete vacuum in Apocalypse World. It has the rhythm not the lawlessness of freeform. And even when there is a vacuum there are decent guidelines (and fall back on "do what honesty demands").

There is a lot of MC ruling (such as on every failed roll because it's a 'Hard Move') but this is not at all the same as having to break into my visualisation and understanding to ask the GM "What happens if I try this" - I know what if I succeed and what the odds are. And because I've handed over the narration it's not some berk at the top of the wall saying "you can't go any further until we've reset the ropes" just while I'm stretching for a new handhold. It's me waiting somewhere I can sit down and take a drink of water. It may take as long (it probably won't - AW is pretty slick) but it's a much nicer place to rest.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The issue here isn't the human mind. It's the human voice. Which is pretty low bandwidth. If I just wanted human minds to be involved I'd give up on rules entirely and play freeform. Having the structure of rules enables us to use our minds to transcend more of the practical limitations.

I am not sure what you mean by voice here. But my point is simply can you understand that not everyone sees this or experiences this the same way as you, when it comes to GM power in an RPG. That for some of us, it is much more liberating to have the GM wield authority to make rulings freely

 

[Bedrockgames]

Except there is very seldom a complete vacuum in Apocalypse World.

Again, haven't played it to comment enough on it specifically, but is this maybe part of the divide? I am not 100% sure what you mean by no vacuum. But if I am specifically saying the thing I like, and find most freeing, is the space created by a vacuum in the rules, and you say AW has no such vacuum, it would seem reasonable that someone with my stated preference would find that aspect of AW less freeing (or at least your description of it is creating an impression that I would)

 

[Neonchameleon]

I am not sure what you mean by voice here. But my point is simply can you understand that not everyone sees this or experiences this the same way as you, when it comes to GM power in an RPG. That for some of us, it is much more liberating to have the GM wield authority to make rulings freely

By "voice" I mean your literal voice. When you open your mouth, air passes over your larynx, and by modulating it that transforms into words.

And it is low bandwidth, period. I do not talk as fast as I read. And I do not read as fast as I think. I believe that this is true for almost every literate adult.

 

[Bedrockgames]

it's not some berk at the top of the wall saying "you can't go any further until we've reset the ropes" just while I'm stretching for a new handhold. It's me waiting somewhere I can sit down and take a drink of water.

This is not how I experience what I am talking about

 

[Bedrockgames]

By "voice" I mean your literal voice. When you open your mouth, air passes over your larynx, and by modulating it that transforms into words.

And it is low bandwidth, period. I do not talk as fast as I read. And I do not read as fast as I think. I believe that this is true for almost every literate adult.

I am not understanding your point in raising voice then

 

[Neonchameleon]

Again, haven't played it to comment enough on it specifically, but is this maybe part of the divide? I am not 100% sure what you mean by no vacuum. But if I am specifically saying the thing I like, and find most freeing, is the space created by a vacuum in the rules, and you say AW has no such vacuum, it would seem reasonable that someone with my stated preference would find that aspect of AW less freeing (or at least your description of it is creating an impression that I would)

And here's where I'm getting confused.

If you find the game most freeing where there are no rules why bother playing D&D at all and not just going freeform. Freeform does have some major advantages. What does having the rules provide you?

It provides me with scaffolding so I don't have to stop and ask the DM everything, and it provides me structure. And it influences the tone.

 

[Maxperson]

By "voice" I mean your literal voice. When you open your mouth, air passes over your larynx, and by modulating it that transforms into words.

And it is low bandwidth, period. I do not talk as fast as I read. And I do not read as fast as I think. I believe that this is true for almost every literate adult.

It may not be as fast, but if I can imagine it, I can generally speak it. It's rare that I'm at a loss for words. I don't think voice is nearly as limited as you are making it out to be.

 

[Maxperson]

And here's where I'm getting confused.

If you find the game most freeing where there are no rules why bother playing D&D at all and not just going freeform. Freeform does have some major advantages. What does having the rules provide you?

It provides me with scaffolding so I don't have to stop and ask the DM everything, and it provides me structure. And it influences the tone.

Because there is merit to limitation. Look at D&D and most other games. They all set limits and those limits define much of the game. You can only be one race. You start with one class and sometimes you can't switch or add new ones. Hit points and the like limit the damage you can take. Limitations are a good thing, but like anything else, if taken to an extreme become bad.