A Question Of Agency?

[Bedrockgames]

Okay. I was trying to give you something more relevant to the topic to focus on and perhaps offer an opinion. I figured you’d want to get out of this back and forth squabbling, something I can get caught up in myself and which i’d like to move on from.

If not, then okay. Enjoy.

Fair enough, I just took a look at the article. My sense, and again I don't play video games, and haven't touched on since about 2010 (and was pretty out of the loop at that point already). So I am not getting the examples he uses (which could impact my analysis). My sense is the writer in this article is talking about something very different from what I am talking about. His definition of agency is: The player's ability to impact the story through the game design or gameplay.

I think the use of the term story isn't how I would frame it, but I also understand some people simply use story to mean "stuff that happens in the game". However reading the article he seems to be talking about stories that are imbedded in play (with plot points and everything), and his use of agency appears to be the players ability to make meaningful choices within that story. I may be misunderstanding, but to me it doesn't sound like he is talking about open world play. Correct me if I am wrong there. I could be. But my whole approach to character agency is to not plan stories at all. This is why I don't focus on events for example, but the characters trying to make events happen. Once you do that, it is easier to preserve agency. Anything people might describe as 'story' in my campaigns, unfolds organically, through interaction between NPCs and PCs. It isn't planned

 

[Aldarc]

Fair enough, if that is how it is used in literary studies. But my point is about how people have been using it to describe sandbox play. I don't find that use incoherent.

What sort of sandbox play? Sandboxes come in a wide variety of shapes and types. In terms of video games, Minecraft, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, and The Sims are all games variously ascribed as being sandbox games. However there is quite a difference between them in terms of how the players can express agency in these games or pursue agendas. There are likewise differences between how much pressure they can exert on their respective fictive worlds.

I just don't, as a general principle, go down that rabbit hole in internet discussions. Occasionally I will, if someone introduces a concept or idea I think is worth spending time on. But I spend enough time discussing things online, I specifically put this limit on myself because in the past it was taking up too much of time and I wanted to be more efficient with internet use.

Then let's take a step back from the idea of reading the article. How much experience do you have with video games, particularly RPGs?

Also folks, if you use the laugh button to ridicule one of my posts, I will definitely be putting you on ignore

In general, it's also helpful to report these as this goes against the spirit of the laugh emoticon for this forum.

Edit: Just now saw your above reply regarding video games.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I am talking largely about the kind of sandbox play you see in OSR and OSR adjacent groups (in that one post, not every use of sandbox by me has been so narrow: clarifying this to avoid future accusations of 'incoherence')

 

[Bedrockgames]

I have very little experience with video games today. I grew up on stuff like Kings Quest and played games like Resident Evil in the 90s. The last RPG video game I played was Zelda on the game cube until a brief week of trying WoW at someone's insistence (it wasn't for me though, so it didn't go past a week). There isn't really much I can say positive or negative about video games to be honest

 

[Fenris-77]

I am talking largely about the kind of sandbox play you see in OSR and OSR adjacent groups (in that one post, not every use of sandbox by me has been so narrow: clarifying this to avoid future accusations of 'incoherence')

Just out of curiosity, how old school is your ideal hex crawl? I can never quite bring myself to do entirely keyed hexes, it's so much bloody work, so I temporize with extensive random tables. I ask because keyed hexes would be the ultimate expression of player agency in a sandbox environment (that I can think of anyway).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, it’s a pretty quick read. And for someone who is citing literature so much as being relevant to the topic, I’m surprised to see you be so resistant to a comparison to another medium. Especially one which, involving games, is actually very close to that of TTRPGs.

To be clear here I wasn't citing literature as hugely relevant to the topic. I was just saying I think that is where people in the hobby borrowed it from. My original phrasing I think was the use of agency as a concept in RPGs seemed informed by the literary meaning.

 

[Campbell]

They use "story" in the article, but I think the point translates pretty well into changing your environment whatever that is. I personally have never been a fan of the use "story" or "the story" to describe in type of game although the fantasy of being there and part of these dramatic events is something I value.

The idea that agency is achieved through gameplay is something I consider fundamental to OSR sandboxes as I play and run them. The idea that as you play a game the player achieves more skill and gains more mastery over their environment is a crucial part of play. So I think scenario design is an often overlooked part of agency here. For me navigating the environment in that sort of play should require cleverness and be fundamentally fair. What I mean by fair is that actions should not be blocked by things that players have no chance to learn. The text of Moldvay B/X is a damn near perfect distillation of these concepts in action.

For me a core part of any game is the pursuit of mastery. There are objectives and reward systems that provide a positive feedback loop to let you know when you are playing the game well. XP for gold is one of the best designed reward mechanisms ever designed in my opinion because it drives you to take action, but leaves what actions entirely in the players' hands.

 

[Aldarc]

I am talking largely about the kind of sandbox play you see in OSR and OSR adjacent groups (in that one post, not every use of sandbox by me has been so narrow: clarifying this to avoid future accusations of 'incoherence')

Okay, but my point here, again through the illustration with video game examples, is that sandbox play describes a fairly wide assortment of games and play styles. You have also reminded me on a number of occasions that OSR play tends to be quite diverse, which from what I can tell also applies to sandbox play.

To be clear here I wasn't citing literature as hugely relevant to the topic. I was just saying I think that is where people in the hobby borrowed it from. My original phrasing I think was the use of agency as a concept in RPGs seemed informed by the literary meaning.

Maybe it is informed by the literary meaning, but I'm not sure if it's the more applicable one. My understanding of literary theory, and @darkbard is free to correct me if I am wrong, but the characters are regarded as "real" for the purposes of supporting the enterprise of literary criticism because otherwise it's difficult to talk about the characters as being anything more than the "programming" of letters on a page. Agency is largely projected on to the characters for this purpose.

I do think that video game player agency is more applicable to discussion as it does often involve cultivated interactive experiences where players control a designated player character.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Just out of curiosity, how old school is your ideal hex crawl? I can never quite bring myself to do entirely keyed hexes, it's so much bloody work, so I temporize with extensive random tables. I ask because keyed hexes would be the ultimate expression of player agency in a sandbox environment (that I can think of anyway).

I like to engage in old school hex crawls from time to time (because I find fun and value in it), but I would say, mostly I use hexes to measure distance rather than to crawl. And I take a light hand with hexes (though it does depend on the setting and genre). Presently I run mostly wuxia campaigns. Also most of my campaigns take place in areas that are civilized, maybe with a frontier, but a known frontier. So mostly the players are doing things like saying they want to go north to the City of Dee (and they tell me what path they are planning based on their knowledge of the map). Then generally each Hex (depends on the scale) would be a Survival Check to see if anything happens. And I would use random encounters (but those tend to be keyed to local elements (for instance if there is a sect that operates in that area, they would be on the table-----and sometimes I have an entry on a table like 'pick something in that hex'). But these kinds of games are often more about the people and organizations living in the setting, than about clearing out hexes. But these wuxia campaigns are often blends of many things (there are dungeons in them, but also sect wars, grudges-----these are a huge part of my encounter table set up---romance, etc). I think some people see the maps to my settings and assume the setting is arranged like Isle of Dread (because of the hexes and the way terrain is rendered). But the drama and sandbox thing is pretty seriously baked into the setting material.

If you really want a sense of how I run this stuff, you can download Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate for free at Drive thru, and just read the GM section. It is a bit out of date (five years old at this point, and I've certainly refined some of my thoughts, but it gets a lot of what I talk about here----and in a less extreme way because I am not contrasting against an alternative style of play in the book----which is one of my frustrations when I engage in these threads (I find myself staking positions and losing sight of actual play).

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, but my point here, again through the illustration with video game examples, is that sandbox play describes a fairly wide assortment of games and play styles. You have also reminded me on a number of occasions that OSR play tends to be quite diverse, which from what I can tell also applies to sandbox play.


Maybe it is informed by the literary meaning, but I'm not sure if it's the more applicable one. My understanding of literary theory, and @darkbard is free to correct me if I am wrong, but the characters are regarded as "real" for the purposes of supporting the enterprise of literary criticism because otherwise it's difficult to talk about the characters as being anything more than the "programming" of letters on a page. Agency is largely projected on to the characters for this purpose.

I do think that video game player agency is more applicable to discussion as it does often involve cultivated interactive experiences where players control a designated player character.

You’ve just described what we’ve been doing and heavily chastised for. Talking about the characters as if they are real for the purposes of play criticism.

when I do that here I’m repeatedly told the characters aren’t real. You can’t do that. Etc.