A Question Of Agency?

[Bedrockgames]

I think largely what we are seeing is a pretty strong difference of opinion in what makes a choice meaningful.

probably; and that is fair.

 

[Neonchameleon]

@Neonchameleon - what definition of agency are you rolling with here? I'm just trying to piece together the gist of your reply to Bedrock above...

The one Bedrock provided and that I quoted.

 

[Fenris-77]

The problem here is that one poster wants to talk about resolution mechanics and the other talking (primarily) about playstyle. Both have an enormous impact on agency, but there's still some apples and oranges going on here. What I find at least a little bit amusing is that a truly open sandbox and play to find out are leveraging very similar levels and types of agency, just differently.

 

[Fenris-77]

The one Bedrock provided and that I quoted.

Mmm, yeah, no offense, I'm not digging for it in a thread this long. Also, you directly compared it to your own definition where setting control is the measure of agency, so you also have your own definition working.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think largely what we are seeing is a pretty strong difference of opinion in what makes a choice meaningful.

I think a part of it is that we're seeing a strong difference in either what someone should be able to do in a world they live in or what makes character creation meaningful.

To me Bedrockgames' version of agency being maximised in a sandbox is viable if and only if you are playing either yourself or another ousider isikai'd into this setting without a pre-existing knowledge of the world or the people in it outside the PCs.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Mmm, yeah, no offense, I'm not digging for it in a thread this long. Also, you directly compared it to your own definition where setting control is the measure of agency, so you also have your own definition working.

Mmm, yeah, no offence, but I quoted it in the literal post before you asked me that question.

But I am literally using your definition of the term that "[player agency] has always meant, your ability to move freely through your character in the setting." And then I am taking that as a baseline and showing where there is more agency available than in a sandbox by using Fate as an example.

The quoted and linked part wasn't my definition. It was Bedrockgames'

 

[Fenris-77]

Mmm, yeah, no offence, but I quoted it in the literal post before you asked me that question.

The quoted and linked part wasn't my definition. It was Bedrockgames'

Well don't I feel silly. I thought there was a previous definition. I'll admit, I'm not quite sure what the phrase the ability to move freely through your character in the setting actually means. If I had to guess it would be something like the ability of your character to move freely through the setting but even that I find an unsatisfyingly vague account of agency. I might not be parsing it right though, who knows

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also, RPG Heroes Podcast: Ep. 11 - Sandboxing in RPGs ft. John Harper

It's about an hour of everyone's time. John Harper is introduced around the 8 minute mark, if you wanted to skip the background info on sandboxes.

I will listen, but just worth pointing out that the person who wrote Blades in the Dark (and to be not knocking that game at all, as it is on my list of games to pick up), is probably going to have a very different take on sandbox than people in the OSR and where I am coming from.

 

[Bedrockgames]

* I'm not sure how you have not encountered this consistently at least when it comes to this community, since I recall such discussions from @pemerton, @Manbearcat, @Campbell, and others for at least 5 years now on this forum.

It is possible this subject has been touched on before among us (as I am often in threads with these posters). I know we've talked about similar ideas at the very least. But the differing definition over agency is only becoming clear to me in this thread (I will admit it often takes encounter something several times with me before it really sinks in, I just don't absorb information quickly and I tend to forget new information unless I reinforce it).

 

[Fenris-77]

I will listen, but just worth pointing out that the person who wrote Blades in the Dark (and to be not knocking that game at all, as it is on my list of games to pick up), is probably going to have a very different take on sandbox than people in the OSR and where I am coming from.

Probably not, surprisingly. The idea of sandbox play is pretty constant, despite the issues we've seen in this thread, and Harper's World of Dungeons is a keen rules-light OSR game, so he's obviously dialed in to the zeitgeist.