A Question Of Agency?

[FrogReaver]

But not to succeed, or even have a chance. Sure, go fight the dragon at first level.

If you can’t succeed then you have no choice to affect a change.

 

[Fenris-77]

If you can’t succeed then you have no choice to affect a change.

You have the choice to enter the dragons lair or not. Goals matter too, of ypu were teying to draw the dragon off, for example, that might be achievable. More importantly, if you back up a few steps, you have the choice of goals, one of which was the dragon. At least in some games you have that. Not so much in more linear games.

 

[robconley]

For "meaningful", this is necessary but not sufficient for a lot of gamers.

Where one falls in this fault line is only the starting point of our conversation.

What "not sufficient" entails is what this thread has been about. Understanding the architecture of that and the pretty profound nuance of that is a bold undertaking. But it is absolutely worthwhile.

I try not to guess at what people find interesting or not, what they find meaningful. Instead I start with a setting, ask what the player what they find interesting about it or just a common what they want to do. Give a couple of possibilities and once they settled on a choice proceed with character creation, outlining the initial situation, and detailing the locales.
Not unlike a tour guide asking their group what kind of places they would like to visit then working with to plan out the initial itinerary. Then adjusting that itinerary through the trip until they come home.

But unlike a real world trip the virtue of using pen, paper, dice, and imagination, the direction of the campaign can radically be altered if it turns out to be something uninteresting.

But all of this is tempered with the fact that choices have consequences. That at the end of the day, the wrong choice will leave to undesired or negative consequences. That chance is part of the equation. My job as referee in regard to this aspect is to ensure the players have and understand all the information their character's would have. If a series of bad choices leads to not getting to the lost brother in time. Then that how it plays out. In my experience it is rare that a single choice result in a consequence of that magnitude. Usually a result many bad choices along the way.

 

[Campbell]

If agency is about having the ability to affect change in the world exactly the way you want to then I’d say agency in this definition is just a synonym for power.

Not just power. Power is a component though.

In order for that power to be useful you also require the autonomy to direct it and the information to know where to direct it. All three are required, but may be present in different quantities.

 

[FrogReaver]

You have the choice to enter the dragons lair or not. Goals matter too, of ypu were teying to draw the dragon off, for example, that might be achievable. More importantly, if you back up a few steps, you have the choice of goals, one of which was the dragon. At least in some games you have that. Not so much in more linear games.

Trying to draw the dragon off is just something the level 1 character might succeed at. He has the ability to affect that particular change.

But killing the dragon he does not have the ability to affect that change. (Please take this at face value as we can endlessly invent and add circumstances to any statement to disprove it).

the way many in this thread would answer this is that a higher level character who could kill the dragon has more agency. He has the power to accomplish more and having power directly feeds into their conception of agency.

I’m saying this isn’t right. Agency is being presented a situation with a dragon and making a meaningful choice. If you are level 1 that choice may be luring it off. That choice may be to hide for now and return to kill it when you are stronger. That choice might be to talk to it and offer yourself to it (you worship dragons after all).

In any event all of these choices affect change which is a good chunk of what agency is all about.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not just power. Power is a component though.

In order for that power to be useful you also require the autonomy to direct it and the information to know where to direct it. All three are required, but may be present in different quantities.

Agreed (that is what is required under your definition of agency). And my point is that you can have agency in a particular situation even when you don’t have the power to do the thing you really want to do. There are nearly always other meaningful choices you can make.

 

[Fenris-77]

Thanks for that. Questions:

1) Every item is 1 Load and Strength score = Load? How does this work out in play, do you think? Punishing enough? Decision-point-ey with respect to treasure enough? How do Porters/Pack Mules work?

2) What is the Coin: Supplies economy like? Too forgiving? Punishing enough?

3) What is the Exhaustion Level Refresh Rate?

4) HP Threshold for Level of Exhaustion?

5) Exhaustion Level able to be accrued within the Panic rules (if not 1st order than 2nd order)?

6) How can Rations and Light Complications be made manifest (eg "you got x result on action resolution or y came up on encounter table...A colony of bats explodes from a chimney and moves all around you in the tightening passage...the flame gutters...do you protect it and accept and risk burns or bites - roll Light to see if it survives and save against fire/bats...or do you hit the deck and let it go out to save yourself...or something else?").

1) Stuff that's like bracelet sized or smaller can be stored 8 to a pouch, which takes up one slot. Generally I think it's appropriately punishing. BH runs on a 3d6 stat gen model, so a lot of characters are going to be in the 8-12 range. Even a wizard has half of that filled just with his staff, spell book and other starting kit. It's tough to really load out on rations to short circuit the play loop. A porter or pack mule carries 12 items, which is cool, and neither are particularly expensive, but both suffer from morale and are squishy, so if you loaf them out with rations and count on it you could be in a serious pickle when they flee midway through a tough fight, or as the result of a fear mechanic roll. That should also give an idea about the treasure decision point, which really isn't about how much treasure can we all carry if we empty our packs. You can go double on STR slots at the cost of being encumbered and moving at half speed, but again, very risk-reward.

2) Coin is pretty forgiving as far as individual costs go, but the importance or rations and the cost of repairing the better armours balances that out IMO. There's no purchasing of magic items, so the only real choice with hordes of coin would, I guess, be the domain route. I haven't played this rules set far enough to have had to worry about that.

3) Exhaustion heals at best, in the wild, at the rate of one level per full day of rest. If you get to town it completely wipes after the first night under a civilized roof. There are some environmental things that could help, locations mostly, that could be found as part of exploration. Finding one would change the decision making process a lot.

4) HP and exhaustion aren't connected by a HP threshold other than going down to 0 and then being revived often results in a level of exhaustion.

5) Second order, 1 result on a d6 takes the character out of action, which might result in a level of exhaustion on revival.

6) Light would be made manifest, in my game, like any other adjudication. I call for a roll, and in this case, would narrate a failure (roll of 1-2) either as guttering or the bats, or just poof it's out if they bellied out the Usage Die. This could be complicated if it happen to coincide with a creature encounter, which it could (not by fiat, but by roll).

Drop the Torch rules, as in TB, are not part of the BH, but I'm going to write them into my hack, because most characters have something combat related they need both hands for. This would also be narrated, of course. That's also why you can hire Torchbearer retainers (just hope the git doesn't flee on you, although I would allow a test to rally them).

 

[pemerton]

I had to go back and look, it's actually in the Expert Booklet on X54, which makes it Cook and Marsh, not Moldvay mea culpa.

That's what I thought.

The reason I draw the distinction is because I'm influenced by Luke Crane's critique of Cook/Marsh Expert vis-a-vis Moldvay Basic. (It used to be on a Google blog site but isn't available any more as far as I know.)

 

[Fenris-77]

I think Moldvay superior in general as well, but I have no issues with the Expert rules in this particular instance.

 

[Manbearcat]

I try not to guess at what people find interesting or not, what they find meaningful. Instead I start with a setting, ask what the player what they find interesting about it or just a common what they want to do. Give a couple of possibilities and once they settled on a choice proceed with character creation, outlining the initial situation, and detailing the locales.
Not unlike a tour guide asking their group what kind of places they would like to visit then working with to plan out the initial itinerary. Then adjusting that itinerary through the trip until they come home.

But unlike a real world trip the virtue of using pen, paper, dice, and imagination, the direction of the campaign can radically be altered if it turns out to be something uninteresting.

But all of this is tempered with the fact that choices have consequences. That at the end of the day, the wrong choice will leave to undesired or negative consequences. That chance is part of the equation. My job as referee in regard to this aspect is to ensure the players have and understand all the information their character's would have. If a series of bad choices leads to not getting to the lost brother in time. Then that how it plays out. In my experience it is rare that a single choice result in a consequence of that magnitude. Usually a result many bad choices along the way.

No I read you.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

I coined (I believe at least...I don't ever recollect seeing it before that) the term "Setting Tourism" (as one of the key aspects of this type of play) a long time ago for precisely the reasons you're outlining above (even using the analogy).

Couple questions:

1) Why do you not try to suss out "what is interesting" (that is, what is the premise and what are the themes and genre tropes of play) prior to play and have table time focus on that? Many games are systemitized precisely around this idea in order to deliver a consistently rewarding experience with respect to "what is interesting." My Life With Master is very different than Moldvay Basic D&D is very different from Dogs in the Vineyard is very different than Blades in the Dark is very different than Torchbearer is very different from D&D 4e is very different from Apocalypse World precisely because "what is interesting" is a foundational question that is asked and answered before starting.

What do you think you gain and what do you think you lose by not preemptively asking this?

2) Do you have a play excerpt in mind that you could share where your own play led to "the brother died (or some derivation of that theme)?" Not like a "story hour" but actually sharing with us what went on under the hood ("Brother Alive Beginning State" > action declarations > action resolution > GM evolution of fiction/gamestate change > rinse repeat until "Brother Dead End State").

That would be helpful.