A Question Of Agency?

I really don't know how much more clear I can be: I wouldn't see making the brother a dead end in this case. I would follow the reaction that I gave in my earlier post about the Kushen Basin (see my response just a couple of posts ago). No one is saying it can't go anywhere. I am just saying in this playstyle it would be considered unreasonable for the player to demand that he get to have some kind of drama with brother down the live. The brother is an NPC just like any other, and while he could go searching for him, in an effort to create a sense of a real world, the GM is going to come to some decisions about what has happened to the brother since they last saw one another. And the possibility that he died is one such thing (now the player is free to investigate that death, go get revenge, spend months erecting a moment....whatever the player wants to do. This is really is not all that unusual, nor is it unreasonable, and it doesn't put a dead end in the campaign. To me it sounds like what is going on, is there is an expectation of exploring a certain character arc. Like I said, if this were my savage worlds group, I would totally do that. But for the sandbox, that just isn't how it would be done.
And, I think, not to be antagonistic, that this is why people like @pemerton would probably say that play in which the GM is always in this absolute final authority role and has all possible agendas in their hands to advance or deny, that this is not play with player agency, it is, at its fundamental essence, a sort of dictatorship where anything anyone at the table can do is really simply a grant of permission from the GM. We can then start splitting hairs about what are some restricted areas where tradition and typical norms of play generally mitigate this a bit, but that just brings us to our fundamental objection with your definition of 'agency', it is imagining that these norms are ALL THERE IS, but plainly they are not...
 

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And, I think, not to be antagonistic, that this is why people like @pemerton would probably say that play in which the GM is always in this absolute final authority role and has all possible agendas in their hands to advance or deny, that this is not play with player agency, it is, at its fundamental essence, a sort of dictatorship where anything anyone at the table can do is really simply a grant of permission from the GM. We can then start splitting hairs about what are some restricted areas where tradition and typical norms of play generally mitigate this a bit, but that just brings us to our fundamental objection with your definition of 'agency', it is imagining that these norms are ALL THERE IS, but plainly they are not...

Just to reiterate Estar's point, you can't be a dictator and have a functioning group. You have to earn the trust of your players and that means being fair, and not abusing the authority to go on a power trip. You are there to facilitate the game.
 

Couple this with the already long-since made refutation of the idea of 'character effectiveness' as agency when the GM still reserves ALL power over the fiction at the table. Players in this theory are like subjects in some pre-Democracy European Kingdom, they are mere subjects. If they exercise some freedom it is either simply a grant of the power of the Sovereign (GM), or an act of rebellion!

I don't think viewing this as a power struggle or comparing the game to real world political systems is all that useful.
 

Here's how I think about and talk about agency. Not only when it comes to games, but also in regards to real life.

It's almost always in regards to a particular objectivity. The agency required to achieve political change or agency over my personal earnings. I think agency requires autonomy, power, and information. You need all three in some amount to have any, but can have more or less overall agency depending on the amount of each you have. You need the autonomy to move freely and choose both your ends and your means. You also need the power to bring about change in your environment. Finally you need information so you can make informed choices about how to leverage your power.

In an old school sandbox like Moldvay you start with almost unlimited autonomy. You can pretty much go anywhere and do anything. What you have very little of is power and information. The entire point of the game is to utilize your autonomy in order to gain more power and information so you can have meaningful agency to achieve your goals. In the real world power often comes with less autonomy, but games are not life so as you progress in level you mostly become more powerful and gather more information while retaining your autonomy. It takes skilled play to gain agency.

I will admit that in most of the character focused games I run players generally have less autonomy, but far more power than starting D&D character (and generally a lot more social influence than most D&D characters of any level) and a lot more access to information to make informed decisions. Like a common fictional conceit is that players might play generals, merchants, etc. People that are connected, but have less freedom of movement. Also characters tend to lives with responsibilities they must juggle against their aims. Agency is not something you are expected to earn in the same way. You can gain more through good play, but not much.

While these contrasts all generally apply to the shape of the fiction I'm talking mostly about players here. So like in an old school sandbox information is centered around the player pretty often like knowledge of monsters, traps, etc. In Apocalypse World we use a lot of telegraphing before we punch the player in the metaphorical face.
A good analysis, as far as it goes....

The point of rules being ot limit options sufficiently to enable meaningful interactions. Excess agency doesn't lead to more play, but to a lack of direction to move in. The point of session 0 is likewise to set limits on story so as to productively produce interesting-to-the-players situations.

One of the things covered in an MAEd program is how to elicit maximum creativity from children - and it is proven that maximum creativity is attained with clear directives and a framework to work within. So, not, "how was your summer?" but, "What cool thing did you do this summer?" The first gets 1-liners. The second gets kidergardeners trying to write essays... in stickfigure drawings, with the few words they can spell...

RPGs are much the same... a framework makes creativity easier.
For some, the level of maximum creativity is more constrained, and they need a clear combination of rules and setting to be comfortable being creative - sometimes down to the level of minis wargame with connections. For others, it's just a casual agreement to genre and trusting others to not overwrite one's contributions, with a provision controlling who gets to narrate when.

Agency without framework lacks meaning. Framework without agency is literature, theater, movies, television...

An interesting literary corpus has a character that, if played in a game, would have too much agency - Q only works because the medium has no true agency, and the authors have chosen to limit the characters choices by Q's warped morality - Q isn't lacking in a moral code - he's clearly got one, and it's the only thing that keeps him testing humanity. We know Q is one of at least 5 Q in the continuum... the level of agency each would have is comparable to a GM's... and 4 GM's with no limits is almost unplayable.

A party of 4 members of the Q continuum are limited only in their morality and the Continuum's ethical standards. (Noting that Q {DeLancie} is clearly borderline on continuum ethics... as we see in several episodes. Q{Bernsen} points this out explicitly in one episode.)

The highest level of agency I've encountered in play is not quite Q-level - Wick's HotBlooded engine, in the form of Blood and Honor, which is samurai. It sets just enough framework to enable story control to be meaningful...

Story requires conflict - many stories are conflict in the form of combat. It's an easy method - one that is also mechanically interesting in most rulesets.

Too much agency makes conflict meaningless, because one can just narrate it away with a handwave if one has sufficient allowed agency.

So, Agency isn't the ultimate parameter: it has to be a resource used in appropriate levels. It's part of a package that makes the game.
 

Now, this is kind of interesting in terms of contrasting with my own position. I see it as a bit paradoxical that NOT having the choice to play a 'powerless' (in some sense) character grants you MORE agency. That doesn't seem right to me...
It's not right. Agency is about meaningful choices. If playing a completely powerless character is meaningful to you then choosing to do so, that's agency. Agency isn't about being able to make every choice you want to make, it's about being able to make some meaningful choice.

What you call a paradox doesn't seem like one to me. It seems as obvious as can be that in play you would lack agency playing the powerless character even if you had agency in choosing to play that character.

(Of course I'm not sure the notion of a truly powerless character actually exists - which is likely a whole other can of worms)


This is one of several reasons I don't really get behind @Bedrockgames definition of agency, nor subscribe to the theory that there are 'different kinds' of agency in any fundamental sense. Couple this with the already long-since made refutation of the idea of 'character effectiveness' as agency when the GM still reserves ALL power over the fiction at the table. Players in this theory are like subjects in some pre-Democracy European Kingdom, they are mere subjects. If they exercise some freedom it is either simply a grant of the power of the Sovereign (GM), or an act of rebellion!
Even in total Monarchies and Dictatorships people make meaningful choices and thus they have agency. Being a subject to a King doesn't take away your agency. You still have meaningful choices to make.
 






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