D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[tetrasodium]

I dont see why Halflings would need any less land than a human peasant. They may be half the height, but Hobbits had 7 meals a day and I've seen nothing to state that Halflings eat substantially less than Humans do. If the Haflings are agraian then they would not about as much land as a human settlement of the same size

prior to 5e (and maybe in 5e too I'm not sure) size small races eat/drink half as much/day

2e Dark Sun had cannibal halflings with lifeshaping magic and a background of world domination.

Being fair to them, halflings used to have an extremely advanced civilization including things like floating cities & such prior to the cleansing war. Maybe it was blue/green age I'm not sure.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You can say that but...

1) Why not, other than being a little lucky and a little sneaky, halflings aren't any scarier than anything else people go to war with. See Goblins.

2) How many evil empires are run by people who are not fools?

2 I’ll grant you, but even fools can see that a small fertile valley isn’t worth losing a fight over.

1

The problem is, you’re treating it as self-evident that this makes them ill-suited to being a PC race, and most of us just don’t see it. Who cares if halfling adventurers are all exceptions to their cultural tendencies? All adventurers are exceptions to their culture’s tendencies. And being particularly disinclined towards adventurous behavior gives halflings a unique niche compared to other races. That’s a good thing.

You’re showing us two points:

a.) Halfling PCs have to be exceptional among their people to narratively justify their reasons for adventuring

and

b.) Halflings are written like NPCs

and failing to draw a line connecting them. I understand that you think a leads to b, but I don’t see how it does and you have done nothing to demonstrate it. You just keep stating that it does and expecting everyone to see it.

I’d like to add, because I think it’s important to the tangential discussion, that halflings are more suited to adventure than nearly any other race, not less so.

They’re lucky, curious, quick to friendship, fiercely loyal, and largely fearless.

That’s a culture that produces adventurers. The main difference between halfling adventurers and human ones is that it’s likely that most halfling adventurers dream of retiring in a cozy cottage with some land to work and a gaggle of kids to raise on the stories of their adventures after they’ve had enough of adventuring, where the human likely dreams of power and fame.

The main thing keeping people out of dungeons is fear, which is easier for halflings to set aside and sublimate in favor of other things like curiosity or determination or loyalty to ones fellows. The halfling needs less “excuse” to delve into a dungeon, much less the increasingly common mode of play where the PCs are heroes, not murderhobos.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I dont see why Halflings would need any less land than a human peasant. They may be half the height, but Hobbits had 7 meals a day and I've seen nothing to state that Halflings eat substantially less than Humans do. If the Haflings are agraian then they would not about as much land as a human settlement of the same size

I don’t think modern D&D has Halflings eating 7 meals a day, but it does have them weighing less than 50lbs as adults. They eat less.

 

[cbwjm]

Halflings started off as Hobbits in 0e and stayed there awhile.

B/X and 3e made them slimmer.

A few take offs of the standard were things like the Fineous Fingers halfling mafia from early Dragon comics which you can see thematically in other contexts like the Benevolent Society for the Advancement of Halflings in Freeport.

2e Dark Sun had cannibal halflings with lifeshaping magic and a background of world domination.

3e added dinosaur riding halflings in Eberron.

Pathfinder had halflings as tagged onto human cultures but best known for being enslaved in devil worshipping Cheliax.

4e went with a sort of river gypsy nomad theme.

Weren't the 2e halflings in Dark Sun the original race? They didn't dominate the other races, they created them. Well maybe they created and then dominated them, I can't quite recall the lore for the dark sun halflings.

 

[tetrasodium]

Weren't the 2e halflings in Dark Sun the original race? They didn't dominate the other races, they created them. Well maybe they created and then dominated them, I can't quite recall the lore for the dark sun halflings.

That's my understanding as well. They created the pristine tower to siphon energy off the sun to create the other races iirc.

 

[Minigiant]

The problem is, you’re treating it as self-evident that this makes them ill-suited to being a PC race, and most of us just don’t see it. Who cares if halfling adventurers are all exceptions to their cultural tendencies? All adventurers are exceptions to their culture’s tendencies. And being particularly disinclined towards adventurous behavior gives halflings a unique niche compared to other races. That’s a good thing.

Again I am not saying they are a bad PC race.
I am saying halfling are written like an NPC nonplayable race..
And when 3e and 4e tried to make the default image not a passive bucolic farmer who does jack squat, 5e reverted it.

You’re showing us two points:

a.) Halfling PCs have to be exceptional among their people to narratively justify their reasons for adventuring

and

b.) Halflings are written like NPCs

and failing to draw a line connecting them. I understand that you think a leads to b, but I don’t see how it does and you have done nothing to demonstrate it. You just keep stating that it does and expecting everyone to see it.

It's not A to B. It's B to A.

D&D, to me, needs to pull out 90% of the hobbit out the halfling. Hobbittowns and shires are silly in a world where 50 miles into the wilderness is hordes of primitive warriors, evil cults, monstrous beasts, crazy fey, amess of undead, portals to other planes, and selflish greedy dragons.

If halflings are going to be an iconic and frontfacing race for D&D, it should at least look like one that would exist in a world with Army of Evil Humainods #17 exists in every forest. The default assumptions of D&D isn't Middle Earth. Halfling might have to change a bit to match the new genre. Halflings feel like square peg round hole in D&D in 3/5th editions.

Just start at Fallohides and move from there. Curiousity is not going to make you slay 50 orcs, dodge 10 death traps, risk your sanity, watch your friends die, kill a dragon, and loot a lair for gold.

 

[Weiley31]

Like, if you think about LotR, the events of the second age were thousands of years ago. The elves just happen to have been alive at the time it happened. Imagine being a general trying to prepare your european country's defense in World War II, and some elf shows up to tell you how really, this whole conflict is because of a war that happened in ancient Rome, and the only way to win WWII is to find Julius Caesar's necklace and throw it in Mt Vesuvius.

So what your saying is, the Nazis wasted their time looking for a Spear.

 

[Umbran]

If halflings are going to be an iconic and frontfacing race for D&D, it should at least look like one that would exist in a world with Army of Evil Humainods #17 exists in every forest.

But... it doesn't. I mean, we are out of 4e - "Points of Light" is no longer the default assumption. In the Forgotten Realms, being the default example, Phandalin stands there without walls, and does okay with just a group of adventurers for defense....

 

[doctorbadwolf]

a world with Army of Evil Humainods #17 exists in every forest.

That’s a thing in...one edition of D&D , basically.

Curiousity is not going to make you slay 50 orcs, dodge 10 death traps, risk your sanity, watch your friends die, kill a dragon, and loot a lair for gold.

Issa joke? Gotta be.

Curiosity and a greatly reduced fear response, certainly would. And curiosity would be...the most prominent common trait amongst adventurers.

And you keep ignoring all the other traits of halflings, like fierce loyalty, being quick to form bonds, a sense of community and especially duty to the community (ie, thing needs doing, I can do it, therefor I am obligated to do it. And bonus, I’m not afraid of doing it).

Seriously the only thing counting against halfling adventurers is “they love a hot meal and a warm fire”, while the stack of traits pointing them toward adventure is at least half a dozen very compelling traits.

 

[Minigiant]

But... it doesn't. I mean, we are out of 4e - "Points of Light" is no longer the default assumption. In the Forgotten Realms, being the default example, Phandalin stands there without walls, and does okay with just a group of adventurers for defense....

There are still barbaric tribes, violent monsters, and evil cults ready to pounce deep in every wilderness of FR.

POL isn't the assumption but from 1e to 5e, "out there" is dangerous.

So a race of people with no ambition, no urge to protect themselves, and no desire to engage in wold politics seems odd.