D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Oofta]

This is such a dumb, simulationist complaint. Even if we accept the premise that halfling culture as-written is averse to adventuring (which for the record I don’t), it doesn’t follow that that makes them poorly integrated into the setting or “written like NPCs”

Don't forget that we also have made up stuff like elves are all mighty warriors because elves that become adventurers are assumed to be representative of the majority of the population.

If you try to hold up most aspects of D&D worlds (especially ones like FR) to a simulation of "reality" they tend to fall apart depending on your assumptions.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

okay, so what are our present conclusions?
as they seem to be that halflings and gnomes may have a place but they seem to not be integrated properly for whatever reason with them ending up with a tacked-on feel that world builders need to fix?

Good luck trying to find a consensus on any topic on this site, especially when it comes to what races should be included in D&D worlds.

Halflings may seem like they're tacked on in most "typical fantasy" worlds, like FR or Greyhawk, but they very much have a special place in Eberron, Dark Sun, Exandria, and Dragonlance. Gnomes are properly integrated in most D&D worlds, IMO.

 

[Minigiant]

This is such a dumb, simulationist complaint. Even if we accept the premise that halfling culture as-written is averse to adventuring (which for the record I don’t), it doesn’t follow that that makes them poorly integrated into the setting or “written like NPCs”

It's only dumb simulationism if you don't care that races are treated similarly by designers and worldbuilders.

It's fine if you like halflings as tall hobbits but other people thinking tall hobbits don't fit D&D is a fair opinion.

In most areas 50-70% of the population would be farmers. Probably 95% or more of humans have no significant weapon training. Halflings have little or nothing other races would value so they are not tempting targets. Raid a human city and you get gold, gems, things of value. Raid a halfling village you get some turnips. They probably don't even make very good slaves. Why raid them?

But again, the book doesn't mention military might for most races. A lot of halfling villages are probably in areas with no strategic value (not close to trade routes or resources) or in existing kingdoms where the other races provide protection. Only some elven sub-race adventurers have weapons training by default, only mountain dwarves are assumed to have weapon training.

Do whatever you want in your campaign, I don't have a problem with them. If the world were so dangerous they couldn't survive, the same would be true for most races.

D&D talks about the warriors, spellcasters, and kingdoms of dwarves, elves, and humans all the time.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Mordys is a generally bad lore book, and not at all core. Only the phb is core for 5e, and in a broader sense nothing is really core except maybe the very most basic info that is shared across editions.

There are no tiers, there is just the phb, mm, and dmg, which are core, and everything else, which isn’t.

Other sources can be useful to inform opinions, but only the core books are anything remotely like “The Rules”.

And the core books don’t support the notion that halfling villages don’t get attacked because Avandra likes them, or the ridiculous dismissible out of hand “tactics” presented in Mordy’s.

Again, I don't care if you think it is a bad book. It is the only lore book that expands on Halflings for 5th edition. It is literally the only official material we have outside of the PHB, barring setting specific information from Eberron.

And, if all you want to do is consider the PHB, consider this.

"The diminutive halflings survive in a world full of larger creatures by avoiding notice or, barring that, avoiding offense."

or

"The combination of their inherent stealth and their unassuming nature helps halflings to avoid unwanted attention."

Yes, there is a line about halflings being fierce if their homes are threatened, but they also have two lines stating outright that they are unassuming and avoid notice as a rule of thumb. Living in small villages with large farms.

So, halflings just avoid being noticed, and they love the simple life and good food. That doesn't sound to me like they have any sort of well-defended homes. Any sort of defenders beyond... burly farm boys?

I mean, I believe it was you who made the claim they were one of the most terrifying races to fight from the PHB. What are you seeing that I'm not? Since you are going to dismiss the only other lore we have because you think it is dumb.

 

[Chaosmancer]

okay, so what are our present conclusions?
as they seem to be that halflings and gnomes may have a place but they seem to not be integrated properly for whatever reason with them ending up with a tacked-on feel that world builders need to fix?

I think gnomes fit far better than halflings.

A halfling Shire is just... not attacked, for reasons.

But a gnomish village is hidden by illusion magic (which gnomes get minor illlusions as a racial feature) and the Forest Gnomes in particular have scouts in the form of woodland creatures (which they get as a racial feature) who can warn them of danger.

Additionally, Rock Gnomes are tinker's, and their penchants for messing around with mechanical and magical workings can easily lead to traps, weapons, and deterrents. They are a "forgotten folk" in that they are rarely in the spot light or doing anything, so they can feel tacked on, but to me at least, they make more sense in how they have survived in the world than the halflings do.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So the complaints seems to be that halflings are farmers that don't always live in major cities? In a world where most humans would also be farmers that don't live in major cities? Because that is one thing that bugs me about a lot of fantasy - what do the people eat? For a pre-industrial society about 70% of the population needs to be farmers.

Which means the majority of most populations is going to live outside the walls. Halflings who live in small communities aren't going make tempting targets because there's not much of value there. If the world is so dangerous that no one can live outside of city walls, no one would survive because everyone would starve to death.

I guess I don't know what people expect. There's not a lot of discussion of military might on any race in the PHB with the possible exception of dwarves.

Except the food, you know, since the orcs, goblins, gnolls, ogres, and hill giants are all famous for going raiding for supplies instead of farming. And you just established that to have a stable population, 70% is going to be growing food.

 

[Chaosmancer]

In most areas 50-70% of the population would be farmers. Probably 95% or more of humans have no significant weapon training. Halflings have little or nothing other races would value so they are not tempting targets. Raid a human city and you get gold, gems, things of value. Raid a halfling village you get some turnips. They probably don't even make very good slaves. Why raid them?

But again, the book doesn't mention military might for most races. A lot of halfling villages are probably in areas with no strategic value (not close to trade routes or resources) or in existing kingdoms where the other races provide protection. Only some elven sub-race adventurers have weapons training by default, only mountain dwarves are assumed to have weapon training.

Do whatever you want in your campaign, I don't have a problem with them. If the world were so dangerous they couldn't survive, the same would be true for most races.

All dwarves get Dwarven Weapon training.

And while most humans don't get weapon training, we are told repeatedly about their armies, wizards, clerics, paladins ect. We know they have a strong military prescence.

Halflings... don't. We never see anything of halflings except the farms, which again, are highly valuable to all of those raiders who don't farm, and are under-protected compared to elf, dwarf and human farms.

 

[Maxperson]

Really?

"My town was destroyed by Orcs/Gnolls/Goblins/Undead" is a pretty bog-standard thing. Lots of adventures where a cult/horde/army ect is nearby and causing trouble.

Plus, goblinoids/Gnolls/Orcs/Hill Giants/Ogres/Ettins/Chromatic Dragons/ ect are presented as pretty much always attacking the civilized races.

I'd say a serious threat to a town happens once a year or so, from the way things are presented.

Yeah, but no. As DM/adventurers, you are by design encountering those sorts of things at a far, far, FAR higher rate than the rest of the world. It skews the perception and makes it seem like these things happen a lot.

Basically, it's the players' fault that these things happen, because they need to be given adventure.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Even assuming higher crop yields (which is going to vary by campaign) you still have to plant, harvest, weed, animal husbandry is all still time consuming. I think you might be able to cut back on the farmer labor force to, say, 50% of the population. Without tractors, milking machines and other aspects of our industrialized agri-business a significant portion of the populace will still be farming. Even if we just go back to 1900, 40% of the population were farmers (and they had steam powered machines) It didn't really start to drop until the 40s.

So yes, the land will be more productive. That just means bigger harvests which will require more people to harvest.

Interesting points.

Haven't done the whole "what would it take" analysis, but I suspect you can get spell analogues to handle most of the supply chain. If the to of my head "move earth" "tenser's floating disc" "speak with animals" various methods for fast travel.

Not sure how much spellcasting it'd take to break all the assumptions, but a lot of the big issues get solved handily by low level spells.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's only dumb simulationism if you don't care that races are treated similarly by designers and worldbuilders.

It's fine if you like halflings as tall hobbits but other people thinking tall hobbits don't fit D&D is a fair opinion.

Tall... hobbits...?