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D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
@Maxperson you're still leaping to extremes & into "that thing doesn't work that way" to preserve bad worldbuilding of the plot armor supported halfling monoculture.

The scale & lackadaisical effort you are giving to halfling farmers when it comes to selling their crops implies oe or more of a few things to keep from developing roads & all of them are problematic
  • You are describing a hobbyist gardener who can afford to "take some stuff and get what you need for good eats." & live off something else procured by the servants in the background while such an important person is otherwise doing important things.
    • This is just not reasonable as nothing suggests that halflings live like that sort of nobility
  • You are suggesting that plants will magically grow what you need in the yields you want when you want them ready
    • This... plants don't work that way even with druidcraft & the plant growth spell. If plants did work that way it would result in a world with an indescribably bizarre economy.
  • You are suggesting that crops will fruit all year long & can be left on the vine/stalk/tree/whatever until you are ready to pick them.
    • Some crops* will indeed fruit most of the year in some climates but largely it is a slowprocess that depends on when they are planted & other factors the farmer only has so much control over. Crops not harvested within a rather short window will rot on the vine or go to seed & the market price of rotten produce/grain is generally rather low even in times of famine.
      • * such as many root vegetables & green leafy vegetables where you eat the leaves
  • You are suggesting that whatever crops halflings grow can simply be thrown into storage indefinitely & kept both free from pests as well as in a sellable state & simply pull them from the shelf so they can bring just the right amount to another town for trade.
    • This is a difficult task even with modern methods today & there is certainly nothing to suggest that the phb halfling monoculture has this level of advancement.
Intentionally or not, whatever the intended implication is, you have a serious problem being created to protect another serious problem.

This might be a language barrier thing but the spice pepper (Piper nigrum) & the fruit from Genus Capsicum known as peppers are two very different things with different needs from many crops. You can't grow those in the same place as say wheat barley or hops. & the amount of water needed for something like peppercorn makes them difficult to grow alongside many other crops without modern irrigation. You can see this first hand today by going around the grocery store produce to see what countries the fruits & vegetables came from.

The silkworm, like the coffee bean, is a product that is very region specific where merchants & nobles spent fortunes in bribes & political favors attempting to transport the worm/plant back home in hopes of developing the ability to produce silk & coffee locally to avoid the expensive trade route. Even today with modern knowledge this is a difficult thing to do unless the climate is jut close enough to perfect in enough aspects for the worm & tree in the case of silk or for the coffee bean itself to develop right in the case of coffee. If silk, coffee, or even spices like pepper were on the table as a crop/trade good for halflings they would be displaced by merchants offering money or merchants hiring armed forces willing to do dirty deeds to some less valuable area to make room for productive farmers & silk producers.

If the halflings were productive farmers who produced crops in volumes like a farmer or valuable tradegoods like people who make a living producing them we again run into the merchant problem. An individual farmer not living in town might need to bring their crop of whatever to town after harvest, but like the blacksmith there would be a merchant with ties to other merchants who then buys most or all of that crop a a reasonable price & brings it down a road in a cart or wagon to a larger town or even port city where it can be sold by a trade cartel of some sort.


A merchant who specializes in distribution would want two hundred pounds of wheat, in fact said merchant probably wants two thousand pounds of wheat from the farmer & still more from other farmers. That merchant wants so much wheat because he's got a contract with various general stores in various towns & cities to supply them with hundreds of pounds of wheat hundreds of pounds of flour & hundreds of pounds of other stuff sent across roads.

That goes back to the fact that things take time to produce and aren't going to be ready just when you need them. A store doesn't need two 4 pound "clothes, traveler's" from bob the halfling farmer because there is another merchant already contracted to bring him an entire crate of them along with a bunch of other stuff that was ordered when the next shipment arrives.

Also you are confusing the redeemable price of trade goods with the redeemable price of specific things. There's a reason why weapons armor & "adventuring gear" where those clothes are found typically sells at ten to fifty percent below market price. By your own description of trade habits this farmer isn't a particularly noteworthy customer or even supplier that would make the shop these "clothes, traveler's" might get sold to willing to give a little better price on purchasing

"What if Phyllis Buttercorn makes her living making clothing?" In that case her profession is "seamstress" just as Bob farmer's profession is farmer and she doesn't really need to give them to bob the farmer because mike the merchant is coming next month to get a whole crate of them that he intends to buy with coin she can use to buy food & other goods from mike or some other merchant with a local shop. It might be she only works part time & mike merchant is only getting that crate of clothing because he's also going to be there in town to get a bunch of other locally produced goods to bring elsewhere over a road but she's still a seamstress who is only going to buy bob so much salt pepper & ale/spirits before telling him the story of the ant and the grashopper

Wheat doesn't magically get transmuted into clothes because you want them. d&d doesn't need ultra detailed economics or anything but even video games tend to have a firmer grasp on things like trade & economies than your recent posts trying to avoid roads from developing are sketching out.
I've told you repeatedly to stop responding to me. Next time I will report it. Your blatant misrepresentations are not acceptable.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:

Hey, @tetrasodium and @Maxperson - could you please stop responding to each other in this thread? It is very clear you two don't get along in this discussion. No, this is not ejecting anyone from the thread. It is trying to make it so the tread can move forward in a reasonable manner.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Either use MToF as a source or ignore it. According to that book "Since a halfling community usually has less than a hundred members..." along with "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders...".

It isn't like I have the book memorized.

So, they don't trade and they are less than 100 people.

So, they likely lack spices, salt, fruits, metals, glassware, either bricks or wood depending on where they are located, wines, fish if they aren't by a waterway, ect. Because they don't trade, and therefore they can't have things that aren't in their immediate local area.

Which actually does increase the chances that they don't really have weapons, that is a lot of metal that they would rather use for tools.

But it's the same old. Even the maps of a dangerous region don't show walls around towns. Dwarves and elves are the only ones with weapon training by default. You can come up with no reason why halfling commoners would be less able to survive than human commoners other than to give human commoners protectors that are not mentioned in any book unless the book is campaign specific.

Don't like halflings? Don't allow them in your campaign. I just reject your claim that can't exist because you hold them to a standard higher than other races.

I don't hold them to a higher standard. That is part of the problem.

I fully acknowledge that those human settlements should have walls. It doesn't make sense that they don't.

But can you acknowledge the point you glossed over? That 16% of one of those villages you named are soldiers who can be mustered in defense of the village? That another one has a dedicated armory and a Temple to a God of War, meaning that if it follows the same 16% rule, they have over a hundred soldiers to call to their defense? Soldiers using steel weapons and armor.

But, no, you want to suddenly pivot. "other than... protectors that are not mentioned in any book unless the book is campaign specific."

You brought forward the examples of towns without walls, and when I discovered that they have a significant soldier populations, well, I'm being too setting specific now. Have to back off and look only at the text, until the text shows oddities in halflings, then I need to back off and look to common logic and how they are in the settings.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It isn't like I have the book memorized.

So, they don't trade and they are less than 100 people.
What part of "they do trade." are you not getting? They don't sell =/= they don't trade. Especially when it says that they do trade and you've been told that, and that they don't sell. I told you that a few posts ago.
So, they likely lack spices, salt, fruits, metals, glassware, either bricks or wood depending on where they are located, wines, fish if they aren't by a waterway, ect. Because they don't trade, and therefore they can't have things that aren't in their immediate local area.
Nowhere does it say that they lack those things. Only that they trade for what they lack. You can have them lack all of that for your game, but what you do in your game has no impact here.
Which actually does increase the chances that they don't really have weapons, that is a lot of metal that they would rather use for tools.
Or else they trade for those weapons.
 

Oofta

Legend
It isn't like I have the book memorized.

So, they don't trade and they are less than 100 people.

So, they likely lack spices, salt, fruits, metals, glassware, either bricks or wood depending on where they are located, wines, fish if they aren't by a waterway, ect. Because they don't trade, and therefore they can't have things that aren't in their immediate local area.

Which actually does increase the chances that they don't really have weapons, that is a lot of metal that they would rather use for tools.



I don't hold them to a higher standard. That is part of the problem.

I fully acknowledge that those human settlements should have walls. It doesn't make sense that they don't.

But can you acknowledge the point you glossed over? That 16% of one of those villages you named are soldiers who can be mustered in defense of the village? That another one has a dedicated armory and a Temple to a God of War, meaning that if it follows the same 16% rule, they have over a hundred soldiers to call to their defense? Soldiers using steel weapons and armor.

But, no, you want to suddenly pivot. "other than... protectors that are not mentioned in any book unless the book is campaign specific."

You brought forward the examples of towns without walls, and when I discovered that they have a significant soldier populations, well, I'm being too setting specific now. Have to back off and look only at the text, until the text shows oddities in halflings, then I need to back off and look to common logic and how they are in the settings.

Unless and until you can show me where it says "X percent of human dominated communities are soldiers while 0 percent of halfling communities are soldiers" you don't have a leg to stand on. Specific campaigns, specific regions and towns in that specific campaign don't mean anything.

Have a good one.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Let's not. Specific beats general and we know from the Halfling lore that they don't.

If they don't trade, they suddenly lack a lot of things we seem to think they should have. I gave a listing to Oofta, if you want to reference it.

Then offhand I'd say that were I Halflings that love food, I'd grow some pepper. Or since, you know, orchards can have some mulberry trees and silkworms, bring silk to trade. Or, since you know, Halflings trading and not generally selling is part of the lore, bring cooks tools, fine clothes, etc. to trade.

Bringing wheat would be stupid, since you know, they don't go to town to sell, but to TRADE and who is going to want 200 pounds of wheat? The lore says that they make a lot of goods themselves, so trading some of those would be much more cost efficient when trading for something like pepper................which of course they can just grow anyway.

Oh they can just grow Black Pepper huh?

"Conditions for growing black pepper plants require high temps, heavy and frequent rainfall, and well-draining soil, all of which are met in the countries of India, Indonesia, and Brazil https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/herbs/peppercorn/how-to-grow-peppercorns.htm"

So live in rainforests now? Oh, and it says as well "These warm loving plants will stop growing when temps drop below 65 F. (18 C.) and do not tolerate frost" and recommends growing them in greenhouses.

Greenhouses would require a lot of glass and metal, plus are highly advanced for a bunch of medieval farmers, and that is if they even got peppercorns.

Oh right, mulberry trees for silk, much more reasonable. They can survive near riverbeds in the more temperate US, so it is possible that 50 halflings could devote the time and resources to raising silk worms to gather and loom the silk. They just need to make sure to take up a lot of space and make sure everything is exposed to the sun, since Mulberry trees need a lot of sunlight.

That shouldn't be a problem for people trying to hide, right?


Still no. Much better things to trade for that ore. 8 pounds of traveler's clothing made by Phyllis Buttercorn and a sprig of Mistletoe that little Will Dumpling found will trade for 10 pounds of iron.

Clothes made from what? Cotton would take up a lot of land for farming, land that isn't being used to grow food for the 50 people. Leathers which most traveler's clothes include is going to require hunting, which pulls people from the farms that halflings are supposed to be tending. After all, they aren't majority hunters, they are majority farmers. Guess they could use cows, except cows need really big pastures, especially if you are trying to keep a stable herd of them to survive and provide a stable source of leather without trading for more cows.

Also, that sprig of mistletoe is useless unless you are selling it to a druid, hope there is a community of them that need mistletoe bought at market on a regular basis.

Mule carry plenty, because not bringing wheat.

It was the farming good I had. Didn't realize we were going from "Halflings are simple farm folk" to "halflings are makers of fine clothes from their silk worm production."

I also mentioned cider from apples, but thanks for ignoring that entirely in favor of making it seem like wheat in an unreasonable measure to judge.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
In my own campaign, halflings excel at "small-work". Fine laces, intricately crafted wood and metalwork, fine glasswork and so on. They make things that human's big clumsy fingers have a hard time with.

Great homebrew and I like it.

As such, there's quite a high weight to value ratio when they do trade with outsiders. As far as the overall topic, most small villages were probably quite self sufficient for the majority of their goods. That's true for villages of all races.

By the middles ages, no, trade was a massive deal. Sure, a small town might be able to make most of the roughspun cloth and wooden tools they needed, but trade and travel were happening on a global scale. And it is actually easily proven with a single event.

The Black Death.

A disease that hit medieval europe from China and other South Asian countries, and procceeded to kill 1/3 to 1/2 (depending on who you read) of all people in europe. Small villages weren't spared, because they were trading with towns, who traded with cities, who engaged in international trade.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
So... D&D world isn't even just Medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly now, but the United State?

Why are there no rainforests? Rainforest doesn't mean 'jungle', you know? Much of the Pacific NW is Rainforest too.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
What part of "they do trade." are you not getting? They don't sell =/= they don't trade. Especially when it says that they do trade and you've been told that, and that they don't sell. I told you that a few posts ago.

Bring it up with @Oofta then, he is the one who told me Mordenkainen's says "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders...".

So, do they trade, but they don't sell? How does that make any sense? Trading is buying and selling. If you mean they don't use hard coin... who cares. Buying a Cow for three chickens is still buying and selling. Money is just a middle man.

Nowhere does it say that they lack those things. Only that they trade for what they lack. You can have them lack all of that for your game, but what you do in your game has no impact here.

Or else they trade for those weapons.

So they do trade.

And since they trade, they need to transport a signifcant number of goods on well-worn paths.

Which means a single mule cutting through a forest trail that hasn't been used for six months because we are trying to prevent making a path that can be followed back to the village, is likely not going to cut it.

So... which is it Max? Do they trade with the outside world, thus leaving them open to discovery by bandits and raiders, or do they not, thus leaving them lacking many of the things we assume they have.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Unless and until you can show me where it says "X percent of human dominated communities are soldiers while 0 percent of halfling communities are soldiers" you don't have a leg to stand on. Specific campaigns, specific regions and towns in that specific campaign don't mean anything.

Have a good one.

Cool.

So your specific map of a specific region of a specific town is also meaningless and we are back to the "everyone would likely have walls" problem.

Glad I got you to completely abandon your position because you don't want to deal with the fact that heavy military prescences are common in these worlds, since they are dangerous
 

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