D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Chaosmancer]

You forgot the risk of trolls. They're running rampant around here.

You know, attacking people instead of their arguments is pretty weak defense.

Sure, you can accuse me and Tetrasodium of trolling, but I want to acknowledge something real fast.

In general? Me and Tetrasodium do not agree, we end up bickering a lot in fact, because generally I find his points extreme and poorly thought out. And in this case? I've been agreeing with him.

There are a lot of problems here, and for whatever reason people want to ignore them in favor of calling us trolls. Just as an example, here is a problem followed by "solutions" I've seen offered:

1) Halflings are specifically said to use sticks and rocks to defend their homes in the official dnd 5e lore on halflings. This would not be adequate against many threats.

a) We should ignore this, because the official book is stupid and it isn't worth reading
b) Logically they would use more than those , so we should just assume that they use actual weapons instead of sticks and stones, because that doesn't make sense. So, we ignore the lore.
c) Since these miliatary tactics mentioned for defending their homes are in the section about their goddess of war and defense, we should assume these are simply religious devotions and not military tactics for defending their homes like we are told. We should ignore the lore, and simply replace it with what makes sense.
d) Other races don't specify how they defend themselves, but they do, so we must assume that halflings do. Therefore we should ignore the lore and just assume they do what everyone else does. Which isn't specified.


Are you seeing a pattern? Ignore, ignore, ignore. It doesn't address the problem, it just declares the problem doesn't exist.

 

[Maxperson]

The book tells us what the traditional defenses are, sticks and rocks. Pot Lids as armor. Note that none of that matches the images from 3.5 you posted.

The book only tells us that they learn tactics using sticks and stones via a holy ritual. You are trying to force that to encompass their whole society, which is why you are getting pushback.

However, a small village according to older DnD rules is..hmm, I'll use hamlet which is 80 to 400 people. Let's take 240 as a mid point. Some of those would be skilled workers, smiths, tanners, ect, but we'll just assume everyone is unskilled labor for ease of math.

240 is too many.

"A typical halfling village is a cluster of small, stone houses with thatched roofs and wooden doors, or burrows dug into hillsides with windows that look out onto gardens of flowers, beans or potatoes. Since a halfling community usually has less than a hundred members, cooperation is critical to their society, and each resident performs regular chores or offers benefits that support the population."

 

[Maxperson]

How many towns transport their goods to city via single pack animal? I'd venture none. They might have a "caravan" of pack animals, that could work, but they wouldn't send a single person.

Probably almost all of them have one or MAYBE two pack animals. They are a very small village and don't care about wealth. They are going to be trading for what they need and little more. They're not going to be bringing tons of goods to make lots of money.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, small individual farmers carry their goods multiple hours to the town by pack animal. Sometimes. But, if they can, they generally use wagons. A lot of people who never use wagons live in places where wagons can't traverse the terrain

How many towns transport their goods to city via single pack animal? I'd venture none. They might have a "caravan" of pack animals, that could work, but they wouldn't send a single person.

And sure, I guess it is possible that those caravans of animals could leave no animal trails that are able to be spotted by a skilled wilderness tracker. I'm sure you can explain exactly how that could be done right? After all, it is supposed to be nearly impossible to find and follow these trails, even for skilled trackers. So, how do they do that?

If you're going to quote MToF, you should also include "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders, but they do love to trade, especially with visitors who have interesting items to swap." So no, there are no caravans carrying trade goods to outsiders.

In any case, still no reason why halflings would be wiped off the face of the earth (or Faerun) while other peasant farming villages continue to thrive. The assumption is that some areas are relatively peaceful and most villages and towns don't have walls as indicated by the maps from Ten Towns. Halflings have the same protections as other farming villages; little or none officially indicated in the book, it will depend on campaign and region.

EDIT: P.S. what do you think most commoners have for weapons? Best they'd normally have would be pitchforks, maybe a wood axe here and there.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The book only tells us that they learn tactics using sticks and stones via a holy ritual. You are trying to force that to encompass their whole society, which is why you are getting pushback.

Nothing about this tells us that it is purely a holy ritual

"In this way, the halflings get practical experience in executing measures that are designed to help the halflings defeat kobolds and goblin raiders, or even take down an ogre."

"Every community practices its own version of Arvoreen’s favored tactics:"

You want to make this mock fighting that is a religious devotion, but it isn't.

240 is too many.

"A typical halfling village is a cluster of small, stone houses with thatched roofs and wooden doors, or burrows dug into hillsides with windows that look out onto gardens of flowers, beans or potatoes. Since a halfling community usually has less than a hundred members, cooperation is critical to their society, and each resident performs regular chores or offers benefits that support the population."

I was answering a question about other races, but thank you for that information about halflings.

Turns out, by the standards or older editions, they don't even get villages or hamlets.

20 to 80 members is a Thorp, the smallest settlement size listed. Which really strains credibility that they can have multiple large farms or Orchards, and basic services like blacksmiths with only 80 people in the village max.

Though, I guess if they are smaller than any basic village by a factor of three, that can explain why they can scrounge out a basic life in areas too small for anyone else to live.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Probably almost all of them have one or MAYBE two pack animals. They are a very small village and don't care about wealth. They are going to be trading for what they need and little more. They're not going to be bringing tons of goods to make lots of money.

I imagined halfling towns were actual villages, not a tiny little plot of land with about 50 people. That's not a real village, that is a handful of homesteaders.

Also, as Tetrasodium mentioned, what about spices for those foods they make? Salt and pepper alone are expensive and would require trading, especially with so few people to farm, they'd never be able to farm any spices themselves. Fruits would have to be imported if they wanted that, so would most spirits. They could make a few themselves, but it would likely be mostly vodka's or meads, since they would have to make it from crops they grew for food.

Would have to trade for iron and steel, they certainly aren't mining their own. Not with a population that small. There would also probably only be single smithing family, if that. If they live near a forest they could have timber, if not they'd need to trade for that too.

Would need to trade for glass, no way they can make that themselves with so few people, unless that was one of their only industries, which again just means less farming.

Man, no wonder they'd be nervous about any child with Fancy Feet, with a population of 50, a single adult leaving represents 2% of the entire population. A pair of childhood friends leaving together plus a merchant who travels accounts for 6% of them. That is a big problem to keeping a stable population.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you're going to quote MToF, you should also include "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders, but they do love to trade, especially with visitors who have interesting items to swap." So no, there are no caravans carrying trade goods to outsiders.

Which as I responded to Maxperson, really raises the questions of where they are getting the spices, wines, glassware, fruits, iron, and wood that they are using.

Lot of things a tiny little group of less than a hundred farmers wouldn't be able to make that the Halflings seem to have access to.

In any case, still no reason why halflings would be wiped off the face of the earth (or Faerun) while other peasant farming villages continue to thrive. The assumption is that some areas are relatively peaceful and most villages and towns don't have walls as indicated by the maps from Ten Towns. Halflings have the same protections as other farming villages; little or none officially indicated in the book, it will depend on campaign and region.

EDIT: P.S. what do you think most commoners have for weapons? Best they'd normally have would be pitchforks, maybe a wood axe here and there.

Well, I listed it out pretty comprehensively in my other post. The one you seem to have skipped.

It is far from unreasonable that a village of 200 to 400 people could have a small defense force, with weapons and armor. Getting to a "small town" means there could be as many as 2,000 people.

The point isn't that the commoners would be fighting, but that they get people whose job it would be to fight the threats. Something that they have the population and wealth to accomplish. Unlike the halfling thorps with their less than 100 members that now seems to be what I need to argue against.

Also, looking at the maps you posted before, they were for Bremen and Easthaven. Quoting the FR wiki:"Circa the Year of the Warrior Princess, 1489 DR, Bremen could rally a meager force of about 25 soldiers" This was while they had a population of 150 souls. Five years prior they had double that, so I would assume 50 soldiers back then, not sure when your map was from.

Had to go to the Legacy of the Crystal Shard Wiki to find a population for Easthaven, seems it was 850 souls. Which, if I apply the same percentage that Bremen had of 16% of their population being soldiers they can muster, would give them a fighting force of 140 people. Not a number supported by anything I could find listed, but they are both part of the Ten Towns, and Easthaven does have a Temple to Tempus and a dedicated armor shop, so I assume that a decent population of people who fight is present. I mean, Rurden's Armory likely doesn't sell pitchforks to the followers of Tempus.

 

[IndigoTraveler]

Cuz Tolkien said the Hobbits were his.

 

[Maxperson]

I imagined halfling towns were actual villages, not a tiny little plot of land with about 50 people. That's not a real village, that is a handful of homesteaders.

Also, as Tetrasodium mentioned, what about spices for those foods they make? Salt and pepper alone are expensive and would require trading, especially with so few people to farm, they'd never be able to farm any spices themselves. Fruits would have to be imported if they wanted that, so would most spirits. They could make a few themselves, but it would likely be mostly vodka's or meads, since they would have to make it from crops they grew for food.

Sure. That's why one mule is sufficient. Take some stuff and get what you need for good eats. They don't need a ton of money for that.

Would have to trade for iron and steel, they certainly aren't mining their own. Not with a population that small. There would also probably only be single smithing family, if that. If they live near a forest they could have timber, if not they'd need to trade for that too.

Sure, but base metal isn't that costly, and they don't need a lot.

Would need to trade for glass, no way they can make that themselves with so few people, unless that was one of their only industries, which again just means less farming.

Not so. There are more than just Halfling farmers per the lore.

Man, no wonder they'd be nervous about any child with Fancy Feet, with a population of 50, a single adult leaving represents 2% of the entire population. A pair of childhood friends leaving together plus a merchant who travels accounts for 6% of them. That is a big problem to keeping a stable population.

This is true! But then other Halflings would probably wander in, and they'd have to have contact with other Halfling villages to prevent in-breeding.

 

[Don Durito]

I don't really follow what the argument here is about but it seems to me the best attitude to take toward WOTC fluff about races is to consider it a bland placeholder to be replaced with something better of your own.

I guess the best thing about it is it dramatically reduces the amount of stuff in the books that you actually need to read.