D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Chaosmancer]

So... D&D world isn't even just Medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly now, but the United State?

Why are there no rainforests? Rainforest doesn't mean 'jungle', you know? Much of the Pacific NW is Rainforest too.

I didn't say there weren't rainforests. But, if the halflings are going to grow pepper, they would need to live in a rainforest.

They would also need to either live by the sea, or in a very dry area to have salt.

They would also need to live in the mountains near a mine to have iron and steel.

The point isn't that these things don't exist, but expecting a village that doesn't trade with the outside world to have all three and more is just ridiculous.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Okay, look.

Let's just be clear what the real message of this thread is:

Halflings are not 'good' only if the following things are true.

You have hand tailored your world so they can't survive.
You purposefully interpret lack of fluff in some places to mean hallfings are literally defenseless while ignoring similar holes of other races.
You as DM, being literal overgod of the world just plain don't like halflings.

Like it is VERY tiring sitting her watching this worldbuilding exercise masquerading as a discussion on Flavor as Written. Yes, you can absolutely create a world that specifically destroys baseline PH halflings on demand while mysteriously letting everyone else live. Congratulations. Can we tailor build a world that destroys Raptorians now? I hate those guys.

 

[Oofta]

Cool.

So your specific map of a specific region of a specific town is also meaningless and we are back to the "everyone would likely have walls" problem.

Glad I got you to completely abandon your position because you don't want to deal with the fact that heavy military prescences are common in these worlds, since they are dangerous

You're the only one (well, you and @tetrasodium) making the assumption that every region in every campaign world is dangerous. That assumption is so illogical and obviously untrue I shouldn't even have to state that it's ludicrous. Yet here we are.

Show me any fluff in any book that states what percentage of humans are soldiers, what standard defenses are that is not campaign and region specific.

 

[Minigiant]

I don'tknow about these whole walls and pepper things.

My whole deal is..

Default D&D assumes fantasy medieval era and fantasy feudalism.

Kings give Nobles land. Commoners pay Nobles to live and work in their lands. Nobles control Knights, Mayors, Rangers, and Mages to handle Defense of their lands.

Halflings is a race that specificly mentions that

1. They don't have kings
2. They don't have nobles
3. They don't have a magic tradition
4. They don't have any overt magic powers
5. They have adults who are the size of human children
6. They don't care about wealth as a nation
7. They don't care about glory as a nation
8. They don't care about world politics as a nation

So for baseline D&D halflings, you can't use the basic assumptions that other races use to explain their place. And no easy excuse for their position is given. Therefore asa D&D fan, for default halflings to work, you have to not think that hard about it, dig through lore books for the halfling justification, or make one up on your own.

This is fine. It just confuses my that you'd still have to do this for a major iconic race editions in.

 

[Maxperson]

Bring it up with @Oofta then, he is the one who told me Mordenkainen's says "Generally, halflings in a village don’t produce goods for sale to outsiders...".

So, do they trade, but they don't sell? How does that make any sense? Trading is buying and selling. If you mean they don't use hard coin... who cares. Buying a Cow for three chickens is still buying and selling. Money is just a middle man.

Trading goods for money = selling. Trading one thing for another = trading. At least in 5e and how people commonly look at it. When I played magic, I sold cards for cash, but traded a bunch of rares for a Black Lotus(which I wish I still had). Your technicality doesn't change that.

And since they trade, they need to transport a signifcant number of goods on well-worn paths.

No. They don't. One mule trading once in a while isn't going to need a well worn path.

Which means a single mule cutting through a forest trail that hasn't been used for six months because we are trying to prevent making a path that can be followed back to the village, is likely not going to cut it.

Sure, it will be more often than every 6 months, but it's not going to be daily or weekly, either. There will probably be a light trail of some sort.

So... which is it Max? Do they trade with the outside world, thus leaving them open to discovery by bandits and raiders, or do they not, thus leaving them lacking many of the things we assume they have.

I reject your False Dichotomy as False.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh they can just grow Black Pepper huh?

"Conditions for growing black pepper plants require high temps, heavy and frequent rainfall, and well-draining soil, all of which are met in the countries of India, Indonesia, and Brazil https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/herbs/peppercorn/how-to-grow-peppercorns.htm"

So live in rainforests now? Oh, and it says as well "These warm loving plants will stop growing when temps drop below 65 F. (18 C.) and do not tolerate frost" and recommends growing them in greenhouses.

Greenhouses would require a lot of glass and metal, plus are highly advanced for a bunch of medieval farmers, and that is if they even got peppercorns.

Oh right, mulberry trees for silk, much more reasonable. They can survive near riverbeds in the more temperate US, so it is possible that 50 halflings could devote the time and resources to raising silk worms to gather and loom the silk. They just need to make sure to take up a lot of space and make sure everything is exposed to the sun, since Mulberry trees need a lot of sunlight.

That shouldn't be a problem for people trying to hide, right?

Show me the RAW that says game black pepper mirrors the real life growing conditions of black pepper. In my experience, plants just grow in D&D. If you want to play Farmers & Almanacs, go for it. I'm happy playing D&D where plants just grow.

Also, that sprig of mistletoe is useless unless you are selling it to a druid, hope there is a community of them that need mistletoe bought at market on a regular basis.

That's not true. If it was, you wouldn't find it in every city like it is. Clearly there's also a non-druid market of some sort for it, which is why druids get luck and can just buy it wherever.

 

[Maxperson]

Great homebrew and I like it.

It's literally what is written. They have trades and crafts. It's not homebrew.

 

[Oofta]

I don'tknow about these whole walls and pepper things.

My whole deal is..

Default D&D assumes fantasy medieval era and fantasy feudalism.

Kings give Nobles land. Commoners pay Nobles to live and work in their lands. Nobles control Knights, Mayors, Rangers, and Mages to handle Defense of their lands.

Halflings is a race that specificly mentions that

1. They don't have kings
2. They don't have nobles
3. They don't have a magic tradition
4. They don't have any overt magic powers
5. They have adults who are the size of human children
6. They don't care about wealth as a nation
7. They don't care about glory as a nation
8. They don't care about world politics as a nation

So for baseline D&D halflings, you can't use the basic assumptions that other races use to explain their place. And no easy excuse for their position is given. Therefore asa D&D fan, for default halflings to work, you have to not think that hard about it, did through lore books for the halfling justification, or make one up on your own.

This is fine. I just confues my that you'd still have to do this for a major iconic race editions in.

Other than halflings don't have kingdoms, I don't see why any of the rest matters. Presumably they pay taxes if they reside in an existing kingdom. The books tell us that they get along well with other races. You're also assuming one very specific type of feudalistic setting that is not universal.

What you see as a weakness I see as a strength and a race with a unique outlook on life. They don't care about glory or conquest but they are innately curious and fearless.

 

[tetrasodium]

So... D&D world isn't even just Medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly now, but the United State?

Why are there no rainforests? Rainforest doesn't mean 'jungle', you know? Much of the Pacific NW is Rainforest too.

• Darksun of all places has the Forest Ridge that is often described as a "dense jungle" both online & in some of the source books but the darksun wiki is underdeveloped & I couldn't find a page for it
• Eberron has Xen'drik
• FR even has Chult & ToA took place there, I believe that's the most written on it

Greyhawk was pretty much "medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly" as you phrased it. FR was pretty much created to be a legally distinct version of greyhawk with the serial numbers scratched off & thus pretty much falls under the same banner. Plausible deniability only goes so far though, when you start declaring that halflings are sustenance farmers (grain/root vegetables/fruits/etc they eat) who also farm exotic spices harvest silk & so plausibility has been run through the shredder lit on fire & fired into the sun.

Okay, look.

Let's just be clear what the real message of this thread is:

Halflings are not 'good' only if the following things are true.

You have hand tailored your world so they can't survive.

Not really, when plot armor is needed to defend the question of why the plot armor surrounding a race is putting limits on free will of other creatures to the point that it strips the ability to apply even moderate levels of most writers are human to motives & goals that intersect with halflings there are problems rippling out from the resulting starfish aliens as we keep seeing from the continued attempts to play up "what about monsters on par with wolves/bears/etc or bandits" being played up as some kind of world being set up to murder halflings.

You purposefully interpret lack of fluff in some places to mean hallfings are literally defenseless while ignoring similar holes of other races.
You as DM, being literal overgod of the world just plain don't like halflings.

elves & dwarves despite lower birth rates than some other races tend to be more advanced in craftsmanship, magic item creation, smithing, urban dwelling, arcane or divine magic, known for having proud military traditions & so on. As @Minigiant mentioned, they embrace the tropes & make them their own while the phb halflings put in effort to avoid them.

Halflings present in settings that are not just "medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly" don't have the same problems but the phb being exclusive to the halflings of settings that are "medieval Europe with magic stapled on haphazardly" makes it harder to just dismiss the phb halflings as something that maybe exists in small pockets part of other more advanced civilizations

Like it is VERY tiring sitting her watching this worldbuilding exercise masquerading as a discussion on Flavor as Written. Yes, you can absolutely create a world that specifically destroys baseline PH halflings on demand while mysteriously letting everyone else live. Congratulations. Can we tailor build a world that destroys Raptorians now? I hate those guys.

"monsters" on par with wolves bears moose and even possible bandits simply existing in numbers greater than zero hardly amount to "a world that specifically destroys phb halflings". While I'm not really sure what raptorians are other than google suggesting maybe something related to my little pony, but here's a picture of a halfling riding a clawfoot(raptor) while battling a displacer beast.

If not for all of that grass & the knowledge that it was used to show a talenta plains halfling in an eberron book I'd say it could possibly represent a darksun halfling with some of the "monster" aspects dialed back too

 

[Minigiant]

Other than halflings don't have kingdoms, I don't see why any of the rest matters. Presumably they pay taxes if they reside in an existing kingdom. The books tell us that they get along well with other races. You're also assuming one very specific type of feudalistic setting that is not universal.

What you see as a weakness I see as a strength and a race with a unique outlook on life. They don't care about glory or conquest but they are innately curious and fearless.

I am just saying that for halflings, I must ponder another step. Another step which I don't have to go for humans, dwarves, elves,half elves, half orcs, gnomes, dragonborn, nor tieflings. And to me that is weird.

I'm not saying that I can't make halfling work. I am saying that I shouldn't still have to do extra work for the 4th most iconic race five editions and over 40 years in.