D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Oofta]

So, we are now adding magical greenhouses made by retired wizards on top of the special magical plants made by archdruids and the interference of the gods.

All to prevent halflings from trading, like every other race.

Do people still not understand why I am so frustrated with this conversation? It seems that people's natural response to halflings maybe having to deal with the outside world is "throw more nice things at them, make them more comfortable, protect them"

Well if you would stop building strawmen maybe it wouldn't be an issue.

A village might have a magic greenhouse because such things exist in mods. They do have interaction with the outside world, they just aren't particularly interested in trade because they're happy with what they have. They don't have to "hide" their orchards doing more than not having them out in an open field. They don't have to have spices to survive, but they would be happy to use them if they did.

None of these are issues unless you make them. It's not like they're a real race, nor has someone written a PHD thesis on halfling culture.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Do they, though? I’m pretty sure they don’t. Because I’ve never seen a D&D world not have taters and tomatoes and tobacco and other new world produce, or lack easy access to pepper, or really show any sign that the climate and flora ecology of the game world is actually European.

You mean it takes place in people's idea of Europe after the Columbian Exhange, a massive world changing event that has shaped our perceptions of the entire globe, and driven entirely by the desire to trade for goods like spices and plants like tea?

I wonder why I might be a little hung up the fact that Trade is kind of a big deal for developing the world, considering so much of "iconic" pairings of things, like Italians and Tomatoes, Irish and Russians and Potatoes, British and Tea or Coffee, South America and Bannana's only exist because of massive international trade.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, they didn’t.

Literally, yes they did. Go back and read Max's posts, he is very specific.

Again, don’t care, not in reference to anything I actually said.

And yet that is what I've been arguing against. So if you have a new premise, please introduce it. Otherwise, I need to stick with the premises I've been given, lest I be accused of shifting goalposts.

Visit central California, especially the foothills around Bakersfield, or Eastern Washington, or any number of other places where the farmland ain’t flat.

And being flat matters because you can't walk over hills?

Also, another point of this that people are ignoring is that once a village is found... it doesn't get up and walk away. Even if orcs needed 100 years to find it, once they find it, it is in the same place, which means it is much easier to find.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Thanks for reminding me why it's pointless to bother responding to you. The original post was about goods that halflings might sell. One example was delicate glass figurines (or other finely wrought goods like lacework).

Once again that gets twisted into something completely different.

Why do pictures of most fantasy buildings for all races have glass windows? Even if true it's because most people today don't know how rare plate glass was.

Actually, my point wasn't about things they sell.

My point was "hey, see all these pictures of halflings with glass windows, how do you think they got them if they don't trade"

To which people responded "they make them"

Which then got me to respond "How, most places don't have the requisite materials to make glass"

To which you responded about scrimshaw. Seemingly referencing something way back about halflings trading in fine artistic goods, instead of farm produce, because farm produce would require more than a mule to transport for the whole village.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I won't disagree that the gnomes have the better write-up, whatever the reason.

That said, you list that they are good at being out of the way, naturally stealthy, and good at hiding. Things, by the way, which gnomes are noted to be good at, hell things which some of them are nigh on actively bad at (looking at you tinkers)

The only difference in the comparison is that the halfling write-up doesn't include the word "magic". Seriously, add the word "magically" into any of the descriptions in that list, and see what that does to your willingness to extrapolate.

Let me ask you this.

How would a level 11 rogue, with expertise in stealth, hide a village?

They are stealthy, perhaps even naturally since I didn't list a race, they are incredibly good at hiding. So... how do they hide an entire village?


That is what is being proposed. Halflings are good at hiding themselves, therefore they can hide entire villages.

And this is being compared to explicitly being told that gnomes are good at at illusion magic, and use illusion magic to hide their villages. So, how do they hide them? With illusions magic.

The misstep people are making is assuming that all gnomes are limited to the cantrip, and despite being skilled illusionists, can never be, you know, actual illusionists.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It should be obvious how Halflings would hide their villages. They do it by living in holes in the ground.

Think of the fancy houses of hobbitton as a middle class evolution of the original hobbit hole in an environment where halflings no longer feel under threat.

In areas where they do, they would have one or two entraces for the whole village and they would be well hidden.

Which, amusingly, is exactly what Gnomes do. They live underground.

 

[Oofta]

Actually, my point wasn't about things they sell.

My point was "hey, see all these pictures of halflings with glass windows, how do you think they got them if they don't trade"

To which people responded "they make them"

Which then got me to respond "How, most places don't have the requisite materials to make glass"

To which you responded about scrimshaw. Seemingly referencing something way back about halflings trading in fine artistic goods, instead of farm produce, because farm produce would require more than a mule to transport for the whole village.

Glass windows are far too common in most fantasy images and stories. They weren't common until the 16th century and even then they were very low quality by our standards.

But where, pray tell, did anyone on this thread mention glass windows other than you? What image in a D&D book show glass windows on halfling villages? AFAIK I'm the only one who mentioned glass which had nothing to do with windows. You ignore my response that it was just one of many possible items that they could produce was glass figurines. The only one? No. So if they have the proper materials at hand they might make things out of glass.

Same way with the magical greenhouse. They exist in D&D fantasy. So it's possible that they might have one in a village. But again. It's not that they never trade, just not as much as some other races because they aren't very interested in material wealth.

 

[tetrasodium]

So, we are now adding magical greenhouses made by retired wizards on top of the special magical plants made by archdruids and the interference of the gods.

All to prevent halflings from trading, like every other race.

Do people still not understand why I am so frustrated with this conversation? It seems that people's natural response to halflings maybe having to deal with the outside world is "throw more nice things at them, make them more comfortable, protect them"

Perhaps there is an attempt to describe the phb halflings as an analog for Союз Советских Социалистических Республик prior to 1991 right down to the PR descriptions not exactly matching the reality on the ground? Maybe they avoid using gold due to a worthless currency that forces halflings not allowed out of the village to resort to the black market for everything they can't get from the killer bread lines

 

[Chaosmancer]

Again, you don't need to hide it. Just being in an out of the way place means that 99.99% of everyone is not going to encounter it. Especially in a world of the D&D tech level. You don't just wander overland to get places. You take roads.

Except for all those "savage races" that don't just follow the roads.

And, since halflings are trading even occasionally, they would be connected by roads, somewhere.

And, once that out of the way place no one ever goes, is found, then anyone who has been there, drawn a map, or tells other people where to find it... can find it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Orchards also don't fit in a 5ft cube, and last longer than a minute.

And Gnomes Illusionists are limited by Minor Illusion.

Unless you want to argue that Mythals are impossible because they can't be done with a cantrip. Or making floating cities is impossible or really the list could go on and on and on.

Gnomes have professional illusionists. We are told this. Limiting them to the cantrip just because every gnomish child can use it is like saying no one can have a movie theater because home TVs aren't that big.