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D&D General Alternate "Ability Scores"

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
Ability scores do influence personality and behavior. Not necessarily in a direct way and not always in the same way but they do have an effect. Someone who is strong but not particularly bright will likely approach problems differently than someone who is intelligent but weak. It's one of many things that affect personality.

Besides, getting rid of intelligence isn't going to change anything.
I think you are missing my point: they aren't "ability scores" they are somewhat garbled collections of aptitudes for specific in-game tasks. They shouldn't influence personality traits. The legacy of treating them like inherent qualities of the character is exactly what I want to excise.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Why it is an issue at all?
So, let’s look at that 5e definition of Intelligence again. “Intelligence measures a character’s mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and ability to reason.” So it makes sense that a character’s Intelligence modifier would apply to checks made to make reasoned deductions, to accurately recall information, or to perform other tasks requiring a degree of mental acuity. What it shouldn’t do, in my opinion, is restrict the scope of actions the player is allowed to take. Characters with low strength aren’t restricted from being allowed to perform certain physical activities, why should characters with low intelligence not be allowed to, say, suggest certain ideas. It’s inconsistent, and extremely prone to DM bias, as what an Int 8 character “could” or “couldn’t” think of, figure out, or remember seems highly subjective and arbitrary, even if you assign IQs to Intelligence scores (which again, I find distasteful). By all means, if you as DM think the task might fail and would have a consequence for failure, call for an Intelligence check. But saying “your character isn’t smart enough to come up with that plan/make that deduction/solve that puzzle/remember that fact” without calling for a check feels wrong to me.
 

Note: I am going to assume you mean why is it an issue if ability scores are thought of as defining personality traits. If I am wrong, please clarify.

To ut it briefly: the only thing that should define how a player portrays their character is that player's desire. Not Alignment (just get rid of it already) and not ability scores. The bug lunk barbarian can absolutely have a high Intelligence, because what intelligence really is is an aptitude with recalling information and seeing connections in 5E. That is all the mechanical heft it has outside of class abilities. On top of it, bundling those things is counterintuitive to me at least: the people I know who are best at recalling information they read ten years ago are not necessarily the same people that solve a mystery.

I won't bore you with more examples. I think that one makes clear by issue.
The player gets to choose how to assign their ability scores. If you want to be an intelligent barbarian, you can. Some people being better at certain facets of an aptitude whilst less so at others is handled via skills. Choose the skills that reflect the facets you want your character to be good at.
 


I have suggested some times to add more abilities scores.


The abilities scores is one of the sacred cows of D&D. Is possible this change in d20 system? Maybe, but not with D&D but other game, for example d20 Modern 2.0, Gamma World, or a videogame.

Why to add more? Because if the goal is to created an ultimate d20 system where all the previous RPGs could be adapted, then we need something for games more focused into investigation and social interactions, for example noir detective against Lovecraftian cults or palace intrigues in the fae court.

Storytelling System has got nine attributes/abilities scores.
 

turnip_farmer

Adventurer
I think you are missing my point: they aren't "ability scores" they are somewhat garbled collections of aptitudes for specific in-game tasks. They shouldn't influence personality traits. The legacy of treating them like inherent qualities of the character is exactly what I want to excise.
So I was a bit confused by your first post; since it just seemed a slight reshuffling of ability scores.

To clarify my understanding; you don't want to change the mechanic of using a short list of scores as modifiers for a universal resolution system; you just want to change the names so people think about them differently and you never have to have a 'your character wouldn't be intelligent enough to think of that!' argument again?
 

Aldarc

Legend
Ability scores do influence personality and behavior. Not necessarily in a direct way and not always in the same way but they do have an effect. Someone who is strong but not particularly bright will likely approach problems differently than someone who is intelligent but weak. It's one of many things that affect personality.

Besides, getting rid of intelligence isn't going to change anything.
It's not as if a player with high wisdom or intelligence can necessarily roleplay these characters with these mental scores well. It's not as if, for example, having a high wisdom means a player will play their cleric with any common sense. Actual wisdom is rarely reflected or translated well in the game. But Wisdom is a pretty terrible attribute since IMHO it tries to cover too much ground, including ground already covered by Intelligence and Charisma.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Ability scores do influence personality and behavior. Not necessarily in a direct way and not always in the same way but they do have an effect. Someone who is strong but not particularly bright will likely approach problems differently than someone who is intelligent but weak. It's one of many things that affect personality.
I do agree with this. Obviously having different ability scores will affect the way players portray their characters. I just don’t think it’s something that needs policing - the way ability checks work alone will encourage players to favor actions that, if a check is required to resolve them, they will have a better chance of succeeding at.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think you are missing my point: they aren't "ability scores" they are somewhat garbled collections of aptitudes for specific in-game tasks. They shouldn't influence personality traits. The legacy of treating them like inherent qualities of the character is exactly what I want to excise.

Your eponymous barbarian that knows a lot about demons has a specific proficiency or background. So the game already handles it. Ability scores are just one small part of what makes that PC unique along with a few dozen other factors before we even get to the imagination of the player which is virtually infinite.

People are different, some people are inherently more intelligent or stronger or more dextrous than others. It does affect who they are and what they do. In the real world we can't easily measure attributes, but I don't see why that matters. It's a game mechanism that oversimplifies reality in order to be something we can comprehend and utilize in the game. The categories are as good as any and you need something to distinguish one PC or creature from another.

In other words, they're just about the worst option possible but no other options are significantly better. Feel free to disagree.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It's not as if a player with high wisdom or intelligence can necessarily roleplay these characters with these mental scores well. It's not as if, for example, having a high wisdom means a player will play their cleric with any common sense. Actual wisdom is rarely reflected or translated well in the game. But Wisdom is a pretty terrible attribute since IMHO it tries to cover too much ground, including ground already covered by Intelligence and Charisma.
Side note: common sense isn’t really a part of what Wisdom represents in 5e. According to the PHB, “Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.” If it wasn’t for the names of the scores being sacred cows, 5e Wisdom would be better referred to as “Awareness” or something like that.
 

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