D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

I think that's the key issue between you and I.

I could be fine with halflings supernaturally finding all the safest haven of the baseline world and maintain an all commoner lifestyle.

But to me, D&D is not a storybook light fantasy nor wargame grimdark fantasy. Wars, invasions, rads, migrations, and monster attacks don't happen all the time. But they happen. That's how the dungeons get populated and the campaigns get kicked off.

Yeah. But I can accept that Halflings are the bright spot in the midst of the dark storm. Raids happen, but happen to Dwarven outposts for the metals. Wars happen, but between the two Human kingdoms. Monsters attack, but they are attacking the Elven village. Very rarely it will happen to Halflings. They aren't immune.

So for halflings to be blessed in a way no other race is, it should have been in the PHB or DMG.

I can agree that the god aspect should at least have been mentioned. But since it does say that they survive by avoiding notice, I'm okay with the clarity offered in Mordenkainen's on the how of it. It doesn't wreck anything for me that it wasn't mentioned, since it still fits.

To not include it in either is to treat halflings like a minor race. And quite frankly I must say, not only do a significant percentage of the D&D treat halflings like a minor joke race... many prefer it. And the same people won't admit it. They need them in the game out of Tolkien fandom but they treat halflings like jokes. I'm calling you out 90% of OSR.

This I don't agree with. I don't see the lack of that inclusion as treating Halflings like a minor race. I do see it as a bit sloppy.

(@Maxperson, this is not all directed at you. I'm just being a bit ranty)

LOL It wasn't even that much of a rant.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I didn't see any acreage calculations for the required size of goatherds to support an entire city of dwarves, not did I see anything about how calorie dense the fantasy mushrooms must be. It's the exact same kind of hand waving as 'fantasy plants'. It works because you say it does. And you've not descried the dwarven lore for failing to address it.

So... my BS-ery was not showing my work? Wow. You have a real thin line there.

Oh, and I've never required that for haflings either. So, thanks for baseless accusations

Yes, on an online forum, people may agree on a conclusion without complete agreement on the particulars of that conclusion.

To the extent I have accused you of anything it is that you have consistently engaged in apples to oranges comparisons with regards to how you've compared halflings to other races, where for the halflings you use and accept only explicit MToF stuff, but for other races you're willing to bring in home-brew or all of human real life history as support. You've been playing with a stacked deck and then complaining that the halflings always lose.

If assuming that humans are humans is my biggest crime, then yeah, I'm guilty.

By the way, the issue I've had with the halfling lore tends to go something like this.

"The Book says that halflings use Rocks and Sticks to fight of invaders, that is silly."

"No, that is only a religious exercise, they fight with normal weapons." / "They run away, no commoners have any weapons anyways" / "Halfling retired adventurers would give them better weapons to fight the invaders"

Or in other words, every time I bring up "hey, this is a weird thing" I get told not only is it not weird, but they don't do that anyways, because they would do this other thing, but that isn't changing the lore at all.

 

[Chaosmancer]

My response to how they could survive in their village or have things to trade was "crafts." It was never once to enable them to hide. Every last time I've said they aren't found it was because of being in out of the way places and/or their gods. I have been entirely consistent with that.

So then you jumped into the discussion of them hiding their villages via crafts for what reason?

There is no "step further" here. The lore says how they keep from being overrun. They 1) live in out of the way places, 2) don't have anything really worth taking, 3) have their gods to hide them, 4) live in safe areas, and 5) are friendly with their neighbors.

1 and 4 are the same thing.

2 is bubcus, I don't know why people keep insisting halflings have nothing of value, when specifically it says if they did it is in the basement. They also have plenty of things to be taken just laying around. After all, they have "crafts".

5 .... most races are generally friendly with each other? So... cool. Unless you want to take it to the part of "the elves, dwarves and humans all rally to protect the halfling village of 50 people, because halflings are so precious and such good friends" which again... why is the fourth most important race in the game being coddled and protected by everyone else?

And then 3... which is the answer tot he question I was being asked (according to you) when you jumped in to give your opinion, except you weren't you were talking about something completely different.

Halflings are just blessed by the gods above and beyond every other race in the entire game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The questions then are: Why the heck isn't that in the PHB or DMG? Is halflings an iconic race or what, WOTC?

This is the thing I keep getting frustrated by.

please...please, explain how you get from sentence one to sentence two. IWhat in the Hells does supposedly missing lore in the PHB have to do with the idea of whether or not they’re an iconic race?

Extrapolate your reasoning because from where I sit, you’re literally just teleporting from a line of thought to a completely unconnected line of thought.

 

[Maxperson]

So then you jumped into the discussion of them hiding their villages via crafts for what reason?

Why would there be a discussion about something that the lore actively refutes? Seems like a silly waste of time.

1 and 4 are the same thing.

Right, because that out of the way red dragon lair is reaaaaaaally safe. Or maybe, just maybe, those two aren't the same thing.

2 is bubcus, I don't know why people keep insisting halflings have nothing of value, when specifically it says if they did it is in the basement. They also have plenty of things to be taken just laying around. After all, they have "crafts".

Because it's a rather big if. You don't raid a place and hope that on a long shot maybe it has something good, or some sandals with a knitted sweater. You hit a place that you know is rich for the loot.

5 .... most races are generally friendly with each other? So... cool. Unless you want to take it to the part of "the elves, dwarves and humans all rally to protect the halfling village of 50 people, because halflings are so precious and such good friends" which again... why is the fourth most important race in the game being coddled and protected by everyone else?

Um, no. Most places are cordial to each other, not actively friendly.

And then 3... which is the answer tot he question I was being asked (according to you) when you jumped in to give your opinion, except you weren't you were talking about something completely different.

Halflings are just blessed by the gods above and beyond every other race in the entire game.

No they aren't. They just have different blessings. Gnomes and other races got innate magical powers. That's some hefty blessing.

Do you think about your answers before you respond? It just seems like you're tossing up any old thing in order to try and win the debate, but that's not working out well.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So... my BS-ery was not showing my work? Wow. You have a real thin line there.

Oh, and I've never required that for haflings either. So, thanks for baseless accusations



If assuming that humans are humans is my biggest crime, then yeah, I'm guilty.

By the way, the issue I've had with the halfling lore tends to go something like this.

"The Book says that halflings use Rocks and Sticks to fight of invaders, that is silly."

"No, that is only a religious exercise, they fight with normal weapons." / "They run away, no commoners have any weapons anyways" / "Halfling retired adventurers would give them better weapons to fight the invaders"

Or in other words, every time I bring up "hey, this is a weird thing" I get told not only is it not weird, but they don't do that anyways, because they would do this other thing, but that isn't changing the lore at all.

You asked me how a 11th level rogue might hide a halfling village.

I suggested in generalities, that they might apply some of the same skills applied to avoid notice as a rogue to hiding the village (obfuscation, misdirection, and disguise) trusting that your imagination might be adequate to fill in the gaps.

You accused me of handwaving it.

I provided more specific methods they might use.

You determined that based on your calculations (you included acreage as a factor) of all the fantasy logistics of those things that of course they wouldn't work.

You've since gone on to answer a challenge to dwarves that is precisely as unmoored from reality as anything I've suggested, yet somehow the level of analysis doesn't have quite the same level of rigor, almost like you are handwaving it.

You are arguing hypocritically.

And by the way, I don't know what you expect me to do about how you are engaging with other posters. I can control neither you nor them, and you will find that none of my posts fit the pattern you describe.

 

[Minigiant]

This is the thing I keep getting frustrated by.

please...please, explain how you get from sentence one to sentence two. IWhat in the Hells does supposedly missing lore in the PHB have to do with the idea of whether or not they’re an iconic race?

Extrapolate your reasoning because from where I sit, you’re literally just teleporting from a line of thought to a completely unconnected line of thought.

I didn't say Halflings aren't an iconic race nor that they don't deserve to be an iconic race.

My points are that

1. TSR didn't treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.
2. WOTC still doesnt treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.
3. Many D&D fans don't treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.
4. Many 3rd party designers don't treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.

And the holes on halfling lore at the start of every edition, the foci on the lore they do get, the lack of seriousness of the imagery of halflings, and constant mechanical weakness of the race in many editions are proof of it.

3e and 4e attempted to push the idea of halfling adventurers at the same level of humans, dwarves, and elves. The rest didn't/don't. And let's not get into OSR.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The thing is, despite you seeming to think this was a gotcha question, nothing in the books tells us that Dwarves don't farm.

It is a gotcha question, because nothing in any D&D book ever tells you dwarves do farm, or that they like farming.

Just as nothing in any D&D book ever tells you halflings can't fight, just that they don't like fighting.

Vulcans don't like fighting. Mimbari don't like fighting. Some people call them space elves, but when you compare them to the D&D races they are more like space halflings. D&D elves can be quite psychotic. I could imagine a D&D setting with fanatically peace-loving flower child elves, in which case there is less need for halflings. But most settings need a race with moral strength, not just martial strength.

Halflings are humanist. They represent the potential of humans to be better.

If you want a D&D world to be Grimdark, it's easy. Cut halflings. But if you want your D&D world to have hope to be something better, have halflings.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

1. WOTC still doesnt treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.

There are a lot more named halfling characters in Rime of the Frostmaiden (I can think of three significant ones off the top of my head) than there are named elf characters (none living).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I didn't say Halflings aren't an iconic race nor that they don't deserve to be an iconic race.

My points are that

1. TSR didn't treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.
2. WOTC still doesnt treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.
3. Many D&D fans don't treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.
4. Many 3rd party designers don't treat halflings like an iconic race on the level of dwarves and elves.

And the holes on halfling lore at the start of every edition, the foci on the lore they do get, the lack of seriousness of the imagery of halflings, and constant mechanical weakness of the race in many editions are proof of it.

3e and 4e attempted to push the idea of halfling adventurers at the same level of humans, dwarves, and elves. The rest didn't/don't. And let's not get into OSR.

You...didn’t explain the thing. I didn’t say that you said they weren’t iconic, I asked what any of this has to do with the question of their iconic status, and I now add to the question why on Earth that matters in any context or on any level?

what relationship does your complaint about Halflings lore have to “iconic” status?