D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

PCs fight against the darkness of the world. NPCs hire the PCs to fight for them. The vast majority of commoners would flee in terror if they saw a demon or aberration. A lot of people are perfectly okay with halflings representing a pastoral ideal, there are peaceful areas in the world. In many campaigns, it's probably the majority of the world. It's part of why you get such pushback. Most worlds are not overrun by monsters and if they were I don't see how anyone would survive much less halflings.

As far as how halflings are protected? Might as well ask how dragons fly. 🤷‍♂️

And yet, as I demonstrated to @Sabathius42 , the town meant to introduce players to the "default town" of 5e, was very much as dangerous as I have said.

And, while commoners might flee, NPCs aren't just commoners. You have elven kings, Dwarven Soldiers, Human Clerics and halfling... commoners. Oh sure, maybe you encounter a halfling rogue, you know the type of guy who according to the book would give you the shirt off your back if you were cold... who is a thief...

Which is the kind of disconnect that gets talked about. Sure, you may be happy with the pastoral ideal, but that is such a one note depiction for a race that is supposed to be the fourth most common adventuring race in a world where adventurers go out to fight evil on a regular basis.
 

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I don't understand why you keep trying to convince me (or the thread in general) that my opinion is incorrect and your are by stating things over and over again or picking things apart. I have stated multiple times already we have different opinions on how the "D&D world" works and that's the fundamental difference that lends us to view halflings differently.

No amount of examples, problems, or other things you point out are going to change my opinion, nor do I feel the need to change my opinions since apparently one of the side effects of that change would be having to reinvent halfling lore I have intention of doing.

I guess I could just roll over and take it, but I have bad habits. People keep accusing me of everything under the sun, and I'm not the sort to just give up when the evidence is so blatant.

Especially as people twist the evidence to prove something that isn't true. You don't need to change halfling lore. I've been told repeatedly they work perfectly fine as written. People can ignore the problems for their home game. But I proved that the DnD worlds are as dangerous as I claimed they were, and I didn't design them that way. I proved that gnomes were taught magic, not just given it. I proved my points over and over again, people just refuse to accept I might be right.

After all, if I was right, then they might feel the need to change, and they don't want to go through that effort. Easier for me to just be wrong.
 

By my reckoning about 80% of this reply is based on your personal setting assumptions that you take to be facts..for some reason that hasn't yet been made clear.

1. How taxes are collected.
2. How much of people's income is taken in taxes.
3. Halflings pay taxes.
4. Halfling commercial interest, even so far as it exists, must exist in equal proportion as it does in other races.
5. D&D settings must mirror a particular time period's economic structures
6. There is no safe place to have a community.
7. A community cannot be made safe without force of arms.
8. Halflings shouldn't feel dissociated from the world.

There is not one of these assumptions that must be true for any given setting.

Then there are the misunderstandings or misreadings of my response and misrememberings of the discussion to date.

Prestidigitation is but one difference and a relatively small one meant to illustrate how different a D&D setting and the Ye Olde times you keep insisting should be the guiding setting principles can be.

I was told in this thread that we were dealing with the medieval times. That was the basis for much of what we were talking about. Between 900 and 1300 AD. I didn't insist on that by myself, it was a consensus of the debate.

1 - 3: Taxes have come up repeatedly. @tetrasodium is usually the one who brings them up. @Oofta has repeatedly taken him to task for assuming that halflings don't pay taxes, so, clearly there is a consensus that they should or do pay taxes. And @Maxperson has said that Halflings don't sell things for coin, because that would make them greedy, so it doesn't matter what percentage of income is taken as taxes, it would likely be in food stuffs. Both because of a lack of coin and because that was the style of taxation during the time period.

Now, I might disagree with some of that, but it hardly matters. I've been told I'm wrong and making stuff up by people constantly. Therefore, your arguments should at least fall in line with everyone else's assumptions. Otherwise, I'm engaging in half a dozen different realities and premises.

6: I showed a map of Faerun earlier. I colored in red every location reported to have populations of gnolls, orcs, goblins, trolls, hill giants, or ect. This map being a surface map, did not include any threats from below the surface, which includes multiple slaver races. The "safest" part of the map were tiny areas that were within 3 days travel of those monster borders. Sure, it is possible that an entire race of people could live and farm in those areas without fear of attack, but it becomes incredibly unlikely. Especially since they would be smack in the middle of locations with a lot of humans and dwarves, and halflings are also supposed to be far away from political conflicts too.

7: The only other solution I've been shown is "the gods make them safe". And yes, in DnD, a game about monsters that you must kill to keep the people safe, I tend to assume that people use force of arms to keep themselves safe. Can diplomacy work? I like to do so in my games, but the default lore certainly doesn't allow that for any of the common raiding races.


8: And you think they should? They are one of the four most common races in the game, one of the four free races alongside human, elf and dwarf. Shouldn't they feel integrated into the world? Isn't them being somehow disconnected from the world a bad thing?

As it relates to farming practices, It's not that the halfling would choose saffron over a less valued crop. It is the reverse. They'd be more willing to sacrifice saffron for rice, so they can have a delicious yellow rice meal, and they can make that choice without feeling like they've made a sacrifice to do so.

You keep presenting the case backwards.

You said halflings could just grow crops like saffron at home.
I said that if they could grow such valuable spices easily from home, then humans could too, and this would mess with the world
You said no, humans can't do that, because they are all commercial farmers and so they couldn't grow small amounts of spices for their own use, only things they can sell for money.


Now what you are saying, which is slightly more reasonable, is that humans would grow saffron (which was my claim, so thank you for agreeing I was right) BUT they wouldn't be willing to not grow saffron in exchange for growing food to eat.

This is the commercial farm problem of the 1700's, the one I kept saying you were talking about. The one that only works if you have massive trade networks in place. Because without the ability to import food, everyone in the region starves to death for not having food.

So, if you would like to posit that humans can't grow saffron, because if they did they'd all starve because they'd stop growing food... well, that is your perogative. But if halflings can grow small amounts of saffron alongside enough food to survive... then so can humans. Human beings, despite what you and Max seem to think, aren't greedy to the point of literally choosing to starve to make money. However, that problem relies on them growing the spices, the thing I said they'd be able to do.

So again, I was right in my analysis, if halflings can grow spices, then humans can grow spices. If halflings can grow spices and food, then humans can grow spices and food, unless you assume the almighty gold piece is so powerful that humans are willing to starve to death in the pursuit of shiny metal, like they are all dragons.

I initiated the comparison to gnomes' on a subrace trait level as points of extrapolation. Now as the halfling entry doesn't actually address the subraces, here we agree that halfling lore is lacking (really weird QA failure there, perhaps the halfling thieves' guild has someone in the editing room). That said, in the same way that the minor features of the gnomes, dwarves, elves, etc. are reflective of how their more talented members serve the community, the minor feature of the lightfoots could be interpreted as similarly reflective without breaking anything. Strangely enough the PHB even describes how they avoid conflict by avoiding notice and the most common reason for adventuring is to defend their community.

As it relates to the specifics for how the rogue can help, they build the strategy and then lead the execution, with help from the community. There may be things they can build or do directly, and there may be others where they can coach another tradesman regarding what's necessary. In either case their skill at stealth can apply.

But in either case, to you did not press me on details because you were concerned about the fit with halfling lore. I know this because neither your initial question nor your response related at all to halfling lore fit. Both were actually concerned with class capabilities, which I have addressed, now multiple times, and which you have not..even once yet.

The class ability of "stealth" does not generally apply beyond the person rolling the skill. It is actually a common problem in adventuring groups. They all roll stealth to hide, the halfling rogue rolls 28, the human fighter rolls 3, and they are discovered.

So, why would I accept that the halflings stealth skill applies to an entire village of people, when it doesn't apply to their friend standing right next to them? That is the major disconnect. You want to apply stealth globally, when it has never applied globally.
 

Reading 40 years of out of print books should not be required to understand the basic structure of halfling society.
Then don't. Just read the Lord of the Rings prologue. It's better written than anything specifically D&D, and can be easily adjusted to most fantasy settings.
Thats many people's issue with the 5e PHB writeup for the class. It says halflings don't do this or that but what they do instead are in other books outside the core set.
Methinks your problem is treating rulebook fluff like divine scripture.
 

Then don't. Just read the Lord of the Rings prologue. It's better written than anything specifically D&D, and can be easily adjusted to most fantasy
Yeah but LOTR and D&D use different base assumptions.


Methinks your problem is treating rulebook fluff like divine scripture.
Methinks you don't get that official content dictates initial perception of a race, class, or monster.

If D&D treats halflings as rustic side characters who don't do anything serious, then that's how most people will see them.
 

The provable fact that not all Deep Gnomes have that magic is a Red Herring that is irrelevant to whether or not all Deep Gnomes have that magic.... How about no.
Literally nobody ever claimed that they all had magic, though, Mr. Strawman. So yes, it's a Red Herring.
I see, so now it matters whether or not the DM allows feats, but it doesn't matter for the Deep Gnome Magic feat... because you say so. Classic argument "your version doesn't count, but my version does count, so you are wrong"
Of course it matters to PCs whether or not DMs allow feats. It would be absurd to think otherwise. It doesn't matter to NPC Deep Gnomes, because they generally aren't built like PCs. I'll let you read the DMG to figure out the truth of that, because from your argument here, it doesn't seem like you've read that book, either. I'll also let you read the MM to see that literally every Deep Gnome that isn't a PC has innate magical ability without the need for a feat.
So. It specifically says they were taught magic by this god. But, you've decided that a God teaching something that is innate is impossible, I mean what are they, a god?
I'll let you think about that for a bit.
Therefore, instead of excepting what the book says (a book which you still claim I haven't read, and that I must except unconditionally) you are going to make up your own version, oh, and your version is the version you read.
:LOL: That had to be a joke.
And then, because you make up your own version, and your version is the only version that is real, I'm wrong, because the book only says what you want it to say, and I engage in strawmen. I mean, I even offered an explanation for them being taught magic, and that magic becoming innate, something that has happened in DnD lore, where communities of high magic concentration gain innate magical powers (they are called "sorcerers" though I'm sure you'll tell me how wrong I am) which allows it to both be taught and innate. But it doesn't make me wrong, so that can't be what the book says, right? I mean, we need to use logic, except when I do it, because then the book disagrees with me and I'm wrong.
No. Literally none of that is why I told you that you were wrong. It is another fantastic Strawman, though. I never made up my own version or said that I made up my own version.
Dude, I flat told you it was just the first quote of his I found, and that I was not digging through the thread to educate you on what other posters have been saying. How about this, if you so badly want to prove your own absolute statement that "no one" has claimed something, how about you go and do the research. Go and pull up every post of his, and breakdown exactly what he meant and throw it in my face with your obsession with hyper-precise language that only means what you want it to mean.
Dude, you gave me a quote that didn't say what you said he said. And no, I'm not going to go back and try and disprove your statement. You made a statement about him. You're almost never correct with your statements. I told you that I'm not going to just believe you when you make a statement any longer and would need a quote. You gave me a quote that failed. It's on you to prove your words, not me. Either do it or don't.
Which shows you have clearly not read anything about goblin lairs. How about you go educate yourself then, maybe read some adventures and the like, since not all raiders are as obsessed with gold and jewels as you are.
1) I had not yet read Goblins, since I haven't used them in 5e yet. 2) I read about Goblin lairs in both Volo's and the MM and not one word says that they raid for ceramics. It does say that they raid for objects to test the waters, but I doubt they are looking for soap dishes, instead of silver and gold objects which have value and use.

Nothing in the lair write-up contradicts me. Of course, to even be near a Halfling village in the first place, that Halfling village needs to be near a mine or abandoned mine for the Goblins to set up their lair in.
 
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1 - 3: Taxes have come up repeatedly. @tetrasodium is usually the one who brings them up. @Oofta has repeatedly taken him to task for assuming that halflings don't pay taxes, so, clearly there is a consensus that they should or do pay taxes. And @Maxperson has said that Halflings don't sell things for coin, because that would make them greedy, so it doesn't matter what percentage of income is taken as taxes, it would likely be in food stuffs. Both because of a lack of coin and because that was the style of taxation during the time period.
Ahhh, Mr. Strawman, Mr. Strawman, Mr. Strawman. I never said that.
 

Halflings are mature souls with the look of kid heroes. Even if the lore may be wrong, we shouldn't worry because we can alter it for our own games, or official retcons are possible.

If there is an official D&D farming simulation videogame (Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley or Haverst Moon: Story of Seasons, maybe for mobile or tablet), you can bet you will find halflings.

Halflings can be fighters or spellcasters, but they are better options as PC races for no-stealth classes.

Now 5th Ed only has got two "stealth classes", rogue and ranger. Here too many halfling rogues becomes boring. These can be useful, but you don't want to wear the same dress everyday, do you?


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After all, if I was right, then they might feel the need to change, and they don't want to go through that effort. Easier for me to just be wrong.
It's more accurate, too. The mental gymnastics you performed in your last big response to me would have gotten you straight 10s at the Olympics.
 

Halflings are mature souls with the look of kid heroes. Even if the lore may be wrong, we shouldn't worry because we can alter it for our own games, or official retcons are possible.

If there is an official D&D farming simulation videogame (Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley or Haverst Moon: Story of Seasons, maybe for mobile or tablet), you can bet you will find halflings.

Halflings can be fighters or spellcasters, but they are better options as PC races for no-stealth classes.

Now 5th Ed only has got two "stealth classes", rogue and ranger. Here too many halfling rogues becomes boring. These can be useful, but you don't want to wear the same dress everyday, do you?


72f4958f6bf602f36cdafe16140320ea.jpg

That's one of the cool things about 5E - one of my players has a stealth based halfling paladin just by taking the criminal background.
 

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