D&D 5E Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?

[Don Durito]

Rude much? You're the one who's claiming the rogue must have advantage because a fighter might do more damage.

No I didn't - are you deliberatly misrepresenting me or did you just skim the original post? Either way the initial rudeness is yours

This is what I said.

1) Without sneak attack the rogue is weak. It's not so bad at low levels, but by mid levels they're comically weak.
2) By mid levels even with sneak attack they're nothing extraordinary. They're about equal to the average adamage of a Fighter or Paladin who is not doing a nova.

In other words, with sneak attack they're about on par with a Fighter who is doing nothing special (no action surge, Great Weapon master etc). They are also single target so there'll be a lot of overspill where the Fighter can redirect extra attacks.

I said that without sneak attack...well it's there isn't it in the original post?

And all of this is basically just the entry to the original post - it's not even the substance.

I swear engaging in conversation on this site is like wading through sludge sometime.

 

[Oofta]

Bad guy moves to an angle they can see them...done. I mean, how common is it that your foes are so far away they cannot do that? Seems like a corner case. The overwhelming majority of the time, it shouldn't come up. I mean shoot, they had to do that anyway if you are behind full cover!

Not very common at all in my games since I don't allow it. But if a rogue can move 15+ feet, there would be many cases where moving to an angle they can see would either be blocked or provoke opp attacks.

In any case, do what you want. I've explained what I do and why.

 

[tommybahama]

Yes, but a held action requires concentration and if the attacker has multiple attacks they only get one (although there could be some debate on that).

I mean, there's always flanking maneuvers but that gets old.

Add a few kobold archers to your encounters or a couple of pet wolves for the BBEG. Heck, add a goblin shaman druid with Summon Beast. Sure, it may annoy your rogue initially, but that 200 GP spell component the druid is carrying will make it totally worth it.

 

[Mistwell]

What rulings? I don't think it's going to change how I run my game, but I am curious.

Here is one.

Here is another, in audio. Fast forward to the 37 minute mark. Crawford talks about how they especially want rogues to hide in combat. He describes how a rogue sneaks around, hides, launches an attack (gaining advantage and sneak attack), and then hide again. He says they worded the language in the hide rule specifically to make it clear that you give away your position from being hidden WHEN YOU HIT OR MISS, and not before that point. So, when you pop your head out and launch a ranged attack from being hidden, you only lose the hidden condition after your attack hits or misses, and not before you launch the attack. He even repeats it and says they worded that way with this in mind. He describes all of this in the audio. It's worth listening to, and it has a lot of other good content on hiding, passive perception, invisibility, etc..

The rule he is referencing is under Unseen Attackers and Targets, where it says, "you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

 

[Oofta]

Here is one.

Here is another, in audio. Fast forward to the 37 minute mark. Crawford talks about how they especially want rogues to hide in combat. He describes how a rogue sneaks around, hides, launches an attack (gaining advantage and sneak attack), and then hide again. He says they worded the language in the hide rule specifically to make it clear that you give away your position from being hidden WHEN YOU HIT OR MISS, and not before that point. So, when you pop your head out and launch a ranged attack from being hidden, you only lose the hidden condition after your attack hits or misses, and not before you launch the attack. He even repeats it and says they worded that way with this in mind. He describes all of this in the audio. It's worth listening to, and it has a lot of other good content on hiding, passive perception, invisibility, etc..

I don't think the tweets say what you think they say. Yes, a rogue can attack from cover and if the DM rules that the target can't see them clearly (or there's some other reason) then he'll remain hidden.

As far as the podcast, I agree that there are times when a rogue could in theory be seen but will not be seen because the target is distracted. It's up to the DM to decide when that happens.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I don't think the tweets say what you think they say. Yes, a rogue can attack from cover and if the DM rules that the target can't see them clearly (or there's some other reason) then he'll remain hidden.

You don't remain hidden unless you have the Skulker feat.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't think the tweets say what you think they say. Yes, a rogue can attack from cover and if the DM rules that the target can't see them clearly (or there's some other reason) then he'll remain hidden.

As far as the podcast, I agree that there are times when a rogue could in theory be seen but will not be seen because the target is distracted. It's up to the DM to decide when that happens.

I think it says exactly what i think it says What is it you think I think it says? I am not arguing anything regarding remaining hidden after you attack. Not sure why you thought I was?

As for the podcast...now I think we're talking past each other again. So I have to know...what is it you think my position is?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm trying to remember if I've ever had a rogue player hide to get sneak attack. They get sneak attack almost every turn just by attacking someone in melee with another party member (or not in the case of the Swasbuckler).

Heck, sometimes I forget that Advantage can even grant sneak attack, the situations when they get it without having an ally in melee being so rare.

I have to wonder if I'm the only one with a group that actually likes melee.

 

[Maxperson]

Agreed. And since it's your Action that caused you not to be hidden, the question is when that applies. When is the d20 rolled? Before leaning out to aim? Or after loosing the arrow?

As far as I can tell, the d20 roll does not correspond to any moment in time. It simply abstracts away the entire sequence of combat events. The rules specify the timing of events during an Attack in terms of before or after dice are rolled, not before or after you aim your weapon.

If you're rolling to see whether your attack hit, the attack had to have happened first. No attack, no roll to hit. I doubt they figured that they needed to specify that.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm trying to remember if I've ever had a rogue player hide to get sneak attack. They get sneak attack almost every turn just by attacking someone in melee with another party member (or not in the case of the Swasbuckler).

Heck, sometimes I forget that Advantage can even grant sneak attack, the situations when they get it without having an ally in melee being so rare.

I have to wonder if I'm the only one with a group that actually likes melee.

I've seen it, but 90%-95% of the time it happens like you just mentioned. It's rare for the rogue to have to hide in combat.